SpyTalk discusses espionage in the context of neo-Nazis in Ukraine. Lucy Kirk, a former CIA operative, provides insight into recruitment challenges during Russia's invasion of Ukraine. The podcast explores the practices of 'walk-ins' and toxic espionage plots, as well as Ukraine's complex history and far-right factions. The conversation delves into the presence of far-right ideologies within militaries and the importance of strategic intelligence gathering.
The presence of far-right groups in Ukraine's conflict has historical roots and limited influence within the political system, but in times of crisis, the Ukrainian state may see a need for these groups, bolstering their standing in society.
The FBI's recruitment tactic of trolling the Russian embassy in Washington is viewed as odd and ineffective, as it could lead to double agent operations and yield unclear meaningful results.
Deep dives
Foreign volunteers and the risk of far-right extremism in the Ukraine conflict
Foreign volunteers, including some with far-right and neo-Nazi sympathies, are traveling to Ukraine to participate in the conflict. While the conflict is not currently dominated by extremists, there is concern that if the conflict drags on and becomes more chaotic, the risk factor of far-right extremism could grow. Access to key decision-makers and insider information is essential for effective recruitment, and random individuals without significant access or expertise are less valuable. The presence of far-right groups in Ukraine has complicated historical roots, and their influence within the country's political system is limited. However, in times of crisis, the Ukrainian state may see a need for these groups, bolstering their standing in society.
The FBI's interaction with the Russian embassy and odd recruitment tactics
The FBI's reported trolling of the Russian embassy in Washington, inviting employees to become American spies or defect, has been met with skepticism. The tactic is viewed as odd and ineffective by former CIA officer Lucy Kirk, as embassy employees are likely to be observed and their access to valuable information may be limited. It is suggested that such recruitment attempts could lead to double agent operations, in which Russians feign interest in defecting while collecting information on the FBI. The FBI's motivations for this strategy are unclear, and it is questioned whether this approach would yield meaningful results.
The danger of far-right groups gaining battle experience in Ukraine
The presence of foreign volunteers, including neo-Nazis and white supremacists, fighting in Ukraine's conflict raises concerns about the long-term implications. While most of those involved in the conflict may not have significant impact upon their return home, far-right groups may benefit from gaining battlefield experience, training, and networking opportunities. The potential growth and influence of these groups depend on various factors, such as the duration and complexity of the conflict. If the conflict becomes more chaotic and insurgency-like, far-right extremism could pose a greater risk, as access to key decision-makers and insider information becomes more valuable.
Ukraine's screening of foreign volunteers and the need for fighters
Foreign volunteers and fighters who wish to join Ukraine's conflict are subject to a screening process, although the strictness of the screening is unclear. While some may have far-right sympathies, the Ukrainian state may prioritize their fighting capabilities over ideological concerns, given the country's existential crisis. Ukraine's approach to accepting foreign volunteers has similarities to the screening of jihadists during the conflict in Afghanistan in the 1980s. The screening process and potential inclusion of far-right elements in Ukraine's forces need to be monitored due to the uncertain implications it may have.
Veteran former CIA operations officer Lucy Kirk talks with Jeff Stein about changes in the spy game since Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, and leading extremism scholar Daveed Gartenstein-Ross goes deep on Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem with Jeanne Meserve.