We welcome ‘ITSM Ninja’ John to the podcast where the discussion starts with a really good/bad joke from Barclay – you decide. John has vast experience in the service management world, bringing

great business and people perspectives to the discussion, particularly how ESM is possibly an indicator of organisational maturity. We discuss how ESM is currently only really seen as the

toolset, and how this needs to change. “If you are not supporting the customer, then you are supporting someone who is supporting the customer”  - is a nice way of saying we all play our part in service delivery too.

John is also clear that organisations don’t really understand the cost of service delivery – on that note we move to the bar, for some classy cocktails.