Renowned foreign affairs expert Robert D. Kaplan joins Jonah to discuss his new book on the Middle East region, exploring the delicate balance between empire and anarchy. They touch on topics such as authoritarianism, China's influence, and American foreign policy. The conversation also includes fascinating travel stories, insights on nationalism in the Middle East, the consequences of the Afghanistan withdrawal, and the challenges facing Russia's future.
Robert Kaplan's book emphasizes the need for consultative governments that prioritize the dignity of citizens in the Middle East.
China's pragmatic approach to foreign policy in the Middle East focuses on trade and economic interests, appealing to regimes seeking stability and economic partnerships.
Russia's weak institutionalization and lack of sustained civil society have led to its projection of power through military strength rather than democratic ideals.
Deep dives
The Loom of Time: Exploring the Greater Middle East
The Loom of Time is a book by Robert Kaplan that delves into the greater Middle East, stretching from Greece to Western China. The book combines political science, history, memoir, and travelogue to offer a comprehensive analysis of the region. Kaplan explores the legacy of empire and anarchy in the Middle East, emphasizing the struggle to find a middle ground between these extremes. He also discusses the importance of stability and governance in the region, highlighting the need for consultative governments that prioritize the dignity of their citizens. While focusing on the greater Middle East, Kaplan also examines China's increasing influence in the region, its economic projects, and military presence. He discusses the potential geopolitical implications of China's engagement in the area, as well as the Biden administration's efforts to maintain American influence and counter China's rising power. Overall, The Loom of Time provides a nuanced examination of the complex dynamics in the greater Middle East and their implications for global politics.
The Challenges of Democracy and Authoritarianism in the Middle East
Robert Kaplan's book examines the challenges of democracy and authoritarianism in the Middle East. He argues that the region's history of imperial rule has hindered the development of modern states and democratic institutions. Kaplan highlights the gray areas between exemplary democracies and harsh dictatorships, emphasizing the need to recognize the nuances between different regimes in the region. He acknowledges the existence of illiberal democracies and livable dictatorships and the unique social contracts they have with their citizens. The book also explores the role of idealism in foreign policy and the importance of balancing just principles with practical considerations. Kaplan's realist internationalist approach advocates for a combination of justice and pragmatism in dealing with complex power dynamics in the Middle East.
China's Geopolitical Interests in the Middle East
Kaplan examines China's growing geopolitical interests in the Middle East. He highlights China's pragmatic approach to foreign policy, focusing on trade and economic interests rather than promoting a particular governance system. China's increasing presence in the region, including investments in infrastructure and natural resources, is driven by its need for stability and access to energy resources. Kaplan discusses China's influence in countries like Saudi Arabia and its efforts to establish military bases and secure trade routes in the Middle East. He argues that China's approach, untouched by ideology, appeals to many regimes in the region, who value predictable governance and economic partnerships without interference in domestic affairs. Kaplan also explores the impact of China's rise on the global balance of power and the response of the Biden administration in countering potential Chinese influence.
Russia's Ambitions and Insecurities in the Global Balance of Power
Kaplan discusses Russia's ambitions and insecurities in the global balance of power. He emphasizes Russia's historical insecurity due to its lack of natural borders and repeated invasions throughout history. Russia's weak institutionalization and lack of a sustained civil society have contributed to its approach of projecting power through military strength rather than democratic ideals. Kaplan highlights the concern that Russia's post-Putin future remains uncertain due to its weak institutions and unpredictable succession plans. While Russia's western borders are relatively stable due to NATO's presence, Russia's influence in neighboring regions, such as Central Asia and the Caucasus, remains a shifting realm of influence. Kaplan also explores the challenges of navigating the delicate relationship with Russia and the potential consequences of Russia's actions on global stability.
Assessing Competitiveness and Interdependency in Global Markets
Kaplan reflects on the notion of competitiveness and the interdependency of global markets. He highlights the need for quality of opportunity and balanced competition within states to foster innovation and growth. While acknowledging the backlash against elite versions of free trade, Kaplan emphasizes the importance of interconnectedness in a globalized world. He argues that maintaining free trade and international cooperation is preferable to isolated protectionist approaches. Kaplan acknowledges the challenges of balancing competitiveness and interdependency, especially in an anxious and interconnected world. He recognizes that prioritizing order and stability is crucial, but highlights the potential benefits of global economic integration and the risks of adopting a purely protectionist mindset.
It’s another round of intense national security wonkery on today’s Remnant, but this time, Jonah’s joined by an overdue first-timer rather than a returning favorite. His guest is Robert D. Kaplan, a prolific writer on foreign policy and author of the new book, The Loom of Time, which explores the state of politics in the Greater Middle East and makes the case for a realist approach to the region. But what does foreign policy realism look like in practice? What kind of shape is democracy in around the world? And what does the future hold for today’s great powers?
