Welcome to episode 92 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives.

In this installment, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and leadership coach/journalist Jo Confino are joined by special guest Jo-ann Rosen. Together, they discuss individual and collective trauma and how mindfulness and neuroscience can help address it. The conversation further explores the concepts of current and historical trauma, how the nervous system can become overwhelmed by modern stresses, the courage required to be vulnerable and honest about our suffering, how this can lead to deeper connections and understanding within a community – and more.

Jo-ann, a psychotherapist with expertise in trauma and mindfulness, shares her personal journey of discovering the Plum Village tradition and how it has informed her understanding of trauma. She emphasizes the importance of collective healing, drawing from her work with marginalized communities and the power of creating safe spaces for people to share their experiences and find support in each other.

Brother Phap Huu also shares his experiences of supporting the Plum Village monastic community and retreatants in cultivating stability and healing through mindfulness practices.

Bio

Dharma Teacher Jo-ann Rosen, True River of Understanding, Chan Tue Ha (pronouns she/her), received the Lamp of Wisdom (symbolizing the transmission of Dharma from Zen Master to disciple) and authorization to teach from Thich Nhat Hanh in 2012. She practices with the EMBRACE and Victoria Sanghas, is a licensed marriage and family therapist, and teaches and lectures internationally, focusing on inner stability and community resiliency. Her writings center on a neuroscience-informed and trauma-sensitive approach to individual practice and collective awakening. She lives with her partner of 40 years in the oak woodlands of Northern California, US.

Photo by Leslie Kirkpatrick

Co-produced by the Plum Village App:
https://plumvillage.app/

And Global Optimism:
https://globaloptimism.com/

With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:
https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/

List of resources

Live show: The Way Out Is In podcast with special guest Ocean Vuong plumvillage.uk/livepodcast

Embrace Sangha
https://www.embracesangha.org/

Unshakeable: Trauma-Informed Mindfulness for Collective Awakening
https://www.parallax.org/product/unshakeable

On the Plum Village App > Meditations > Trauma Informed Practice

Interbeing
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interbeing

The Miracle of Mindfulness
https://plumvillage.shop/products/books/personal-growth-and-self-care/the-miracle-of-mindfulness-2

Dharma Talks: ‘Redefining the Four Noble Truths’
https://plumvillage.org/library/dharma-talks/redefining-the-four-noble-truths

Thich Nhat Hanh: Redefining the Four Noble Truths
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eARDko51Xdw

‘The Four Dharma Seals of Plum Village’
https://plumvillage.org/articles/the-four-dharma-seals-of-plum-village

Quotes

“The nervous system evolves very slowly. It doesn’t change overnight. Ten thousand years is nothing in terms of your nervous system changing. So this nervous system I’m running around in is evolved for a hunter-gatherer. It’s not evolved for being in a car at a stoplight or having somebody demand things of me that I’m incapable of doing. Then I start to be nervous as if I’m going to die. That’s so bewildering. So as I learned more and more about the neuroscience, it was this great relief: ‘I’m not broken. I’m okay. I don’t have to hide what I can’t do.’”

“We’re all suffering from the expectation that we can function in this crazy world when our nervous system is not made for unrelenting stresses. And when we experience unrelenting stresses without good social support, our nervous system is overwhelmed and expresses that in a variety of ways. But the first line of what this neuroscience stuff can do is make us realize that we’re acting normally in a very tragic situation that we’re just not made for.”

“I really shy away from the word ‘trauma’, because it has a very particular spin right now. That’s not to say that deep-trauma therapists and super astute neuroscientists in labs and scanners, et cetera, aren’t making a huge contribution to the understanding of trauma. But I would like to take the word out and instead say, ‘We’re dealing with things that we’re not built for.’”

“To put it crudely, the nervous system creates certain states of mind that are purely about well-being – and we can savor those. But then we have certain states of mind which require more alertness and more activity in our bodies. That’s not bad; we have all the mental formations in there and can handle it without being carried away. And one of the things that neuroscience can bring to our understanding of Thay’s teachings is a little better sense of, ‘What does it mean to be carried away? How can I tell when I’m carried away?’ Because that’s really foundational in our practice.”

“Is our practice something that will heal traumas? Well, sometimes. And sometimes not. So it’s not an ‘either’ or ‘but’; what we’ve been working with is how to help ourselves regulate our nervous systems so we can practice, because practice is so much bigger than any trauma that we have.”

“Mindfulness means that you can be triggered, but know how to be with the emotions that are being triggered – so that you can be a part of the world, engaging with the world, engaging with yourself.”

“To walk together, that’s very healing. To listen together, to feel safe, that’s very healing. And that is teaching our nervous system the feeling of safety, to allow us to also touch our empathy. So, when we see others who are not in safety, we have empathy; we want to do everything in our capacity to transform that part of society.”

“There is no way to healing; healing is the way.”

Naming Names with Kim Congdon