How Sophie recovered from postpartum insomnia by moving away from trying to control her sleep so she could regain control over her life (#67)

Transcript

Martin: Welcome to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. My name is Martin Reed. I believe that by changing how we respond to insomnia and all the difficult thoughts and feelings that come with it, we can move away from struggling with insomnia and toward living the life we want to live.

Martin: The content of this podcast is provided for informational and educational purposes only. It is not medical advice and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease, disorder, or medical condition. It should never replace any advice given to you by your physician or any other licensed healthcare provider. Insomnia Coach LLC offers coaching services only and does not provide therapy, counseling, medical advice, or medical treatment. The statements and opinions expressed by guests are their own and are not necessarily endorsed by Insomnia Coach LLC. All content is provided “as is” and without warranties, either express or implied.

Martin: Okay, Sophie, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to come on to the podcast.

Sophie: of course.

Martin: Let’s start right at the very beginning. Can you tell us a little bit more about when your sleep problems first began and what you think caused those initial issues with sleep?

Sophie: Yes. So for me, it really started after the birth of my son two years ago. And looking back, I don’t think I had ever been what we call a good sleeper. Like I have some friends who can sleep in airports or fall asleep very quick anywhere they go. And it had never been me. I always had nightmares.

Sophie: Needed my blackout blinds and my sometimes I mask or my earplugs to make it perfect but I think the difference was that before having my son, I think I was not putting as much pressure on sleeping because I was like whatever if I have a bad night’s sleep, it’s fine. I can nap tomorrow or like I don’t think I had as much pressure to perform as a mother who wants to parent well, and so Yeah, of course, I was expecting that after having a baby, my sleep would take a toll.

Sophie: Everybody tells you, oh, you’ll see, right? It’s hard to sleep deprivation. And I was expecting that would be my biggest challenge, because I had always been someone who needed the eight or nine hours sleep and or I thought so. And yeah, like coming into it, we decided that we, I would strictly breastfeed. So that meant that all the, what I call the night shifts, because that’s really how it felt like I was going to work at night to feed my baby.

Sophie: So all the night shifts were on me because we’re not bottle feeding. And so I think that’s how my sleep really got dysregulated at that point. Because Yeah, you wake up multiple times a night and then you’re trying to catch up in the day, trying to nap and having those long naps in the afternoon.

Sophie: And my circadian rhythm was just all out of whack. And so in the first few months, I was like this is just the reality of being a new mother, you’re not sleeping well. And I had support during the day from my parents and my partner to you. Compensate for the bad nights because I could pass on the baby and try to go to sleep But once that support was gone and I was suddenly, alone at home all day I think it even put more pressure At night to sleep because I was like, okay tomorrow I gotta be on, you know No one else will take care of my baby And that’s when I started having trouble falling asleep in between feeds, like my baby would feed and normally he’d like sleep for three hours in between feeds, but I was still there awake, like fully awake.

Sophie: And it’s as if my brain was like you’re going to wake up in three hours anyway. So why would you fall asleep now? And so that was really hard. And to the point where my mental health just started really going down. And I, at some point, I remember begging my partner to Take more time off from work because I was like I can’t do this Like I just feel like i’m not a good mother, you know I was crying all the time and I felt like I was going straight to postpartum depression if I kept not sleeping So anyways for other reasons we stopped breastfeeding at around the four months mark and this is where I realized that this was not just parenting, like the typical parenting sleep problem because my partner was like now I can bottle feed at night.

Sophie: So you go downstairs in what we call the sleep den because it’s away from the baby. We can go there and know that we’ll have a good night’s sleep. And I was still not sleeping. I was like going to bed. Fully awake unable to fall asleep, and sometimes three, four hours before falling asleep. I was also waking up a lot during the night, I think maybe expecting that I was needed.

Sophie: So I was like maybe it’s gonna take a while before my brain understands that, I don’t have a baby to attend to anymore. But still, it was weeks of that, of really struggling. And then my partner actually went part time like work part time because I was still struggling so much that I needed to catch up during the day, even though I had the possibility of sleeping through the full night.

Sophie: And I remember coming upstairs and both my baby and my partner are fast asleep. And I’m like, Just running in circle in the living room thinking. Oh my god. I’m so broken like what is wrong with me I can’t sleep and so Around I think a month of that of trying to get my sleep back in order just sleeping downstairs My partner was doing all the nights And I was still not sleeping.

Sophie: I went to the doctor like that’s the first thing you do when you have a health issue oh I’m gonna go to the doctor. So we prescribed some medication and as a lot of people have said on your podcast, you could try that for a while and like sometimes, for me, it worked for maybe two weeks.

Sophie: And I kept increasing the dosage to see if I would fall asleep more quickly. But it was not working. And also I didn’t like the side effects of the medication. I felt really groggy. And, there were some nights where my partner needed also a full night’s sleep. So sometimes I was taking on like a night once in a while.

Sophie: And I was like how can I attend to my baby if I’m feeling dizzy and nauseated from that medication? So I didn’t like being on it so I went for like Benadryl which the pharmacist had recommended as like possible sleep aids So I was taking like two Before night and again, like nothing was working.

Sophie: So I was like, okay, I need to go towards something else clearly so I went on And you see all the recommendations about no screen time, two hours prior to bed and what else they say oh, having a relaxing routine, make sure you address stress. I had these blue light glasses that I was wearing all evening.

Sophie: But still no results. And I just felt so desperate by that point because I was like it seems like there’s no way out. Like I’m never gonna sleep again. And when you reach that point, I think It’s very distressing because at least when I had not tried the medication, I still thought, I could always take the medication.

Sophie: But once I had tried and it was not working, I was like, okay, that means that’s my reality for the rest of my life. And the saddest part, Martin, was that. I wanted a bigger family, and I was like, there’s no way I can have another child if I can’t sleep, right? And that was the biggest grief, like when I dig deeper into what that meant to me, that’s really like, deepest grief that I had to go through was like, maybe we’re not, we’re only gonna have one child.

Sophie: because of that. And it’s so sad to think about that. So anyways, one night I was again and like turning around in bed and I was like I need to hear other people’s stories or like research Maybe a podcast or something. I just felt so alone you know when you in the middle of the night and you look at all the Houses around and the lights are down and everybody’s sleeping and you’re awake You feel like such a like failure, right?

Sophie: And so I’ve just typed postpartum insomnia on Spotify, and I found an interview you did with another woman who had postpartum insomnia. And that’s the first time I felt hope in so much, in so long. Listening to her story, and I think there was a moment where she said that she was even able to fall asleep like the light was on in the bedroom or something.

Sophie: And Like on a randomly, and I was like, wow, I can only dream of sleeping well like this, And so that’s where I started to look into your content and your youtube channel and I tried basically just from Listening to your tips on your channel. I tried the sleep restriction idea because that’s what that was so novel to me I was like no one has ever told me That by trying to go to bed later, I could get more sleep.

Sophie: This is so counterintuitive and Everybody like I remember there was one guy on your channel I think he had dealt with insomnia for 20 years or something like cases like this. You’re like, oh my god This is so I’m such a newbie in insomnia, like versus these people who have dealt with it for so long.

Sophie: And he had said the sleep restriction was really what had helped him. I was like, what is that? So I looked at your content. And I was like, maybe I could try that. And honestly, like in a few days, and I did that plus, Also, when I wake up at night doing things that were pleasant, that were, those were the two interventions that I tried.

Sophie: So I had a baby photo book that I wanted to work on for my son. And I had printed some like actual pictures not like very old school. And I had that project and I was like, Oh, I’m actually looking forward to getting up at night to do this because I’d never have time in the day. And When I had that thought that’s funny enough, like I, I didn’t wake up in the night because Of course it took the pressure off almost of sleeping because I was looking forward to being up and so That was so transformative like just these two things.

Sophie: Really helped me to a point where I was able to function again And I was just so thankful to you and so that lasted a few months of like my sleep being good You And then I had a relapse that was my son was a year and a bit in October, or last year, and I can’t remember, I was trying to track what happened.

Sophie: I don’t even know what happened, but I just had a huge relapse of insomnia. And I remember it had been a few days where I didn’t have much sleep, like maybe four hours. And I know for some people on your, who you talk to later, they’re like four hours is great. But for me, four hours was like, Oh my God.

Sophie: Like I, that’s my limit. And that night I had only three hours. I was up until four, I think. And I remember writing a note to my partner in the kitchen table Can you drop David off at daycare today because I’m not going to be able to and I need to sleep in. And I just felt again like such a failure.

Sophie: I was like, you know what, like you’re putting all that load on your partner. Like my partner for him to do that like it’s much more like I have much more flexibility on in my schedule because I’m working online. I have an online program like you and like my schedule is way more flexible. So for me to drop my son off at daycare, it’s no problem.

Sophie: But for him, like it’s, it really impacts his day because he needs to get work at a certain time. And I woke up that day and I was just so done with it. I was like, all right, you got to do something. It’s clearly impacting everybody here. Not only you, but like thinking of how it impacted my son. And my partner, I was like, this is not only about you.

Sophie: This is also about all the people around you. And I wrote a text to my partner, I was like, I’m taking action today. And this is going to be fixed. I promise. And he said, I’m glad that you found something and I went directly to your website. I didn’t go to your channel because I was like, okay, clearly, Martin has a program that’s all laid out, I felt like I needed more than the odd tip and like fishing around on the internet, I wanted a structured program I needed that structured support when your thoughts are just so all over the place. It’s really hard to think straight. So I was like, I need someone to take me by the hand. Basically, and then I like looked at your program and the investment and I was like do I want to do that?

Sophie: And then there’s this little voice in my head that was like, Are you ridiculous right now? Do you feel like you’re worth this investment? And do you feel like your family is worth this investment? And the answer was so clear. It was like, there’s no, other way for me to get where I want to be.

Sophie: And if I’m not worth that it’s ridiculous, right? So I like, signed up for the program. And that day, I went through first week in a few hours, like that morning, I was like, Okay, that’s what I’m doing. And you’re smart, you’d put it as drip content In your course, so like you can’t go to week two before you actually did the homework because that I would be the kind of person I’m doing it all, I’m gonna go through it all right now, because I’m desperate, but no, like I had to go through week one and do my homework.

Sophie: And it was so helpful to me just the few the first few videos on your course where you’re just de dramatizing the lack of sleep, just really taking the pressure off of sleeping and how I feel like there’s not even a week that goes by where you don’t have a radio show where it talks about the impact of lack of sleep and how it’s linked to cancer and all of these disease and every time I’d hear something about sleep and I’d turn it off because I was like okay now it’s just gonna put more pressure on me to sleep and I knew I didn’t get enough sleep or that’s what I thought. And I remember your lesson about. Like the people who didn’t sleep for, I don’t know how many days and like never die or didn’t die, and just putting those like different perspectives of okay, people can do great things on lack of sleep too.

Sophie: And that was such a shift for me to understand, I can still do things without sleep. That was the biggest realization of that first week. And when you say, don’t cancel your plans when you don’t sleep, because then that gives reason to your brain. The next night you’re not sleeping, you’re like, Ah, yeah, like the other day I didn’t have enough sleep, and I wasn’t able to work, I wasn’t able to drop my son off at daycare, and your brain, Kind of just grabs onto these thoughts to be justifying the fact that sleep is important.

Sophie: And so remember there was one night where I didn’t sleep at all. That was the first time ever that I had no, no sleep at all. And I had a gig the following day because I’m a singer songwriter. I had a gig in the school with children. And I also had two clients to see in my clinic. I’m a physiotherapist and I did it all.

Sophie: I like. I did not cancel the gig because I was like, there’s all these teachers who, and it’s probably why I was not sleeping, because I knew everybody was waiting for me, and there was so much pressure for me to perform. But all these people have arranged their schedule around that gig, and, my clients, we’ve booked these appointments weeks ago.

Sophie: I’m still gonna do it. And that was the most powerful thing because, and I made it all the way until 9 or 10 that night. I think I had a half hour sleep like nap after my gig just because I just needed it, but I really put an alarm on half an hour, and I didn’t want to go like longer than that.

Sophie: And ever since, when I feel like I have trouble falling asleep, I think of that day. And I was like, look what you were able to do with no sleep at all. You sang ten songs in front of kids. No, I’m not gonna lie, I was still looking at my lyrics sheet that day. But I was able to do that and see clients and It just unlocked such an empowerment in my brain of okay, even if you don’t sleep, you can still do great things. And so that was a huge shift for me. And honestly, I didn’t even go through your whole program because I, after four weeks, I did the first four weeks and my sleep was like back to normal. And I felt like the tools that I got from the, I think your program is over six weeks but the tools I got from the first four weeks were just enough.

Sophie: And, I, and you became part of our family. Like I mentioned you all the time. It’s just it’s really funny you’re really part of our conversations.

Sophie: And, yeah, it was just so incredible to have that structure. And also, your voice is just so reassuring and soothing. Like sometimes, And I would not sleep and I’ll just listen to there was like something about it was a meditation For anxiety or anxious thoughts, I think or something like that. I was like, oh, I’ll just listen to that I’ll calm me down or so Yeah, it was like so transformative and like ever since going through your program, I’ve been recommending it to so many people.

Sophie: And even doc, I told my doctor about you I was like, I’d like if you have clients who are going through insomnia issues and they’re not responding to, even if they’re responding to medication, maybe they want to go off medication. And so he took your name and, I think.

Sophie: People need to be more informed about behavioral approach and your, yeah, just other things than just reducing screen time and things like that, obviously those things, if they were working, people were, would, would not go to their doctor and ask for medication. Yeah, I just want to thank you so much for your work and because that really changed my life and the most beautiful thing is that now I’m okay with having a second child, because I know I have the tools so I feel like, that’s huge for me to go from so desperate of I don’t want to grow my family anymore because of my sleep to now having all these possibilities ahead of us.

Martin: Wow. You just did an amazing summary or an encapsulation of what the insomnia struggle is like and what the journey away from that struggle can be like. You identified a trigger for that initial sleep disruption, your natural response to that sleep disruption just as you shared, It can then get even more difficult because it’s like everything that we’re trying to do doesn’t seem to be working or is making things more difficult.

Martin: So then we start to feel like we’re broken, that there’s something uniquely wrong, so we might try even harder. And then we can get tangled up, because all the things that we start to do then to fix things, or to protect our sleep, or to compensate for lost sleep, can be actions that aren’t aligned with who we are.

Martin: Or who we want to be or the life we want to live. And your actions just become less about serving you more about serving the insomnia or the sleep. And so we’re getting pulled away from the life we want to live, which makes things more difficult. Our sleep is still struggling, which makes things more difficult. And then on top of that, we’ve got our problem solving brain, right? It’s in there trying to fix things, trying to look out for us.

Martin: And as it does that to get our attention, it’s generating really difficult thoughts, feelings, stories, like you’re broken. You can’t be a good mom. You can’t have another child. This is never going to get better. All that stuff. And then we can get tangled up in a struggle with our minds.

Martin: So it’s not just about the sleep anymore, it’s about everything that’s going on in our heads as well. I’m curious when you experienced all those normal and natural thoughts and feelings before we started working together. How did you typically respond to them?

Sophie: I think for me, it was just build, it was a building up spiral that, Just got worse and to a point where I was so frustrated and angry and you know almost wanting to hit something like that’s really how I felt and sometimes Before we started working together. I would get up and just be like, like just Wanting to do something but I was not doing anything like not productive but I was just circling around like walking around in the living room and just like even holding my head like Clearly, if you had asked a bad actor to act like what angry and frustrated looks like, they would do all these gestures.

Sophie: It feels ridiculous, but I was doing all of that. And yeah, so I was really letting these thoughts grab onto me and I was, giving them more and more importance.

Sophie: And of course, these thoughts were right in the way because I was, the following day, if I was not sleeping, I was not a good mom. I was canceling plans, so I was not a good friend either. I was justifying these thoughts because I was taking the actions that were justifying them. So it was just like a loop that was that kept feeding itself.

Sophie: But when you break that by saying, no, I’m just gonna do what the things that I’m intending to do, then the thoughts are suddenly losing their power because you know that it’s not true what they’re trying to tell you.

Martin: Even if our mind tells us things like, you can’t do this, you’re not going to be good at doing this, we’re doing them anyway. Compared to, oh yeah. You’re right, I can’t do that, so we do less of the stuff that matters, and then it just feeds into itself .

Sophie: Totally. And yeah, it was interesting because I gradually like first I was like, I’m just gonna try and get good sleep in the sleep den, downstairs, and once I have achieved that, I saw it as levels, almost, in a video game, it’s okay, once you can sleep there, but then I was communicating with you because I got your program where I could get one to one support through email.

Sophie: And one of my goals actually I didn’t mention that but was to sleep with my partner because I was like, we’re a couple, we’re not going to be one of these old people like sleeping in different rooms like this is not how I envision my relationship to be and I know it can be normal for a few months after baby is born just so at least one person gets good sleep but Now it’s had been going for a year, and I was like, this is, I feel like this is how people’s relationships eventually break.

Sophie: It’s like they just don’t connect anymore, and in, in intimacy as well, when you think of that. And so I was back and forth emailing with you and I was like, how can I get there to sleep with my partner? And you were like, I encourage you to just live the life you want to live. And if there’s enough sleep pressure, sleep’s going to happen.

Sophie: We are able to sleep together again and we got like a few props like getting a king bed for example to help like Having more space and we now have our separate blankets too because if we like the warmth and everything anyways So it’s different than it was before but we are definitely now able to sleep together and have that connection, which is so nice.

Martin: The more that we can engage in actions that matter to us, for example, sharing a bed with our partner, which is something we can control, whereas we can’t control how the sleep might go, the more we can do that, the less power and influence all of this difficult stuff can have over our lives.

Martin: And the less influence it has, the less of a problem it is. And the less of a problem it is, the less attention we pay to it, the less energy it consumes. And when we get to that stage, It really can just take care of itself. And if we can ever think back on a time when we didn’t have insomnia, we can probably recognize that I didn’t do anything to make sleep happen.

Martin: And that’s really what we want to get back to, right?

Sophie: Exactly. And there was like, another good example of that on your podcast was this man who said that he was anxious because he had to go travel for his daughter’s wedding, I think, and he was worried because it wouldn’t be in the same environment. And he was like, what if I don’t sleep? And I think He ended up not sleeping at all before the wedding, but like still attended and walk her down the alley or something like that.

Sophie: And and I can relate to that because traveling, like my family is not here where I live. I live in the Northern Canada in Yukon and they live in Quebec. And I, when David was four months old, we wanted to go travel for Christmas and that was at the peak of my insomnia, and I was so anxious about that because I was like, okay, now we’re going to go into hotel rooms where the baby was going to be in the same room.

Sophie: And my partner too, like there’s just going to be so many factors that will impact my sleep. And, I didn’t have great sleep during that trip, but we still went, and I was like, that would have been so unfortunate for me to be like, Oh no, I need to stay home for Christmas because, You know of my insomnia that would have been so ridiculous and like Now I can think of traveling and not even think about sleep.

Sophie: I’m like of course i’m gonna sleep, And i’m just thinking of these people out there if you’re listening to this and you’re still struggling with insomnia and you haven’t worked with martinez I would highly recommend that you do because if you’re you’re If you’re restricting yourself from doing things that you love or like the life that you want to live as you mentioned this is so sad.

Sophie: This is such a no brainer to me that you should sign up for this program because it’s gonna change your life forever And, yeah, yeah, for me it was an easy decision, I’m like, I’m, what, I was 37 at the time and I was like, there’s no way that this is going to be the rest of my life Like sleeping apart from my partner Not having other children like this is not me Like i’m a go getter like when I have a goal in life, I go for it and in this whole thing was just really Taking my power away, you know from the life I wanted to live. It was so transformative.

I kept hearing your voice saying you can do hard things. And it’s still my mantra to this date, even for other things in my life, and I’m like, you can do hard things. And yeah. Yes, it’s, is it gonna be easy to fix your insomnia? No. Like you said, change is hard, but. Does that justify staying in, in this life? No, I think you should do the hard work so you can get the results.

Martin: I think if we reflect on our own lives, we can probably draw out a few things that were really hard, that were really difficult. Any education that we’ve achieved or any career that we’ve achieved.

Martin: Now, most of us found that wasn’t all plain sailing. So being at school is rarely easy all of the time. Gaining the skill to get to that point in our career that we now find ourselves in wasn’t easy. There were times where it felt easy, but there were other times when it felt really hard and then the brain fires up and it’s like you need to just quit, give in, this isn’t going to work. You’re not able to do this job, but the fact is, we can do hard things. And once we can reflect on our own experience of doing that. We can maybe identify some of the strengths that we have because when things are difficult, our brain kind of blocks all of this from us.

Martin: It builds this wall and we don’t even realize how strong we are and What strength of character we have because that’s all gone because our focus is just on the struggle that we’re in.

Sophie: Totally. I think like in every challenge, there’s a growth opportunity.

Martin: I think we all have that moment somewhere in our past where We can reflect on that and notice that too where we came out of a really difficult situation and it was upon reflection an opportunity that helped us. It was like an experience that helped us grow, that helped us develop. And like you touched upon, I really just want to emphasize too is that when we give ourselves that opportunity to do hard things or to commit to meaningful actions, even when things are difficult, then we have that experience, right? We have that in our refreshed memory bank so that when our mind starts to tell us again, if you don’t get X amount of sleep tonight and you’ll have to cancel everything tomorrow.

Martin: You won’t be able to do this. You can be like actually yesterday or day before yesterday I did all the things I wanted to do. Now that might not have been as easy. It might not have been as enjoyable, but I did them. I carried on doing things that mattered to me even when all this stuff was present.

Martin: And you can always then draw upon that.

Sophie: And I think like something you taught me as well is the perception of sleep is more important than the actual sleep you get. Because I take my partner as an example. He has a watch, like a smart watch, and the watch can tell him how much he slept.

Sophie: And somehow when the watch tells him that he didn’t get as much sleep as he thought he feels more tired. And When, I don’t look at the clock anymore. I just sleep and then I decided that the amount of sleep I’m getting is not dictating how I’m going to feel the next day and what I’m going to do.

Sophie: So It’s a data that I don’t really care about anymore, and I feel like I can, like on a less amount of sleep, say I sleep six hours, and he slept seven or eight, I still feel better than he does. And I know everybody has different sleep patterns. sleep needs and such. But yeah, I just find it so interesting that if I knew how much I would get, then I think I might be more likely to be, Oh, I’m so tired today, but because I don’t attribute any importance to that anymore.

Sophie: I’m just so detached and I’m like, no, this is fine. Whatever. I couldn’t get eight hours. I’m going to still do this interview this morning. I get five hours. I’m still doing it. No, it doesn’t impact anything. And that’s such a. If you can detach yourself from that outcome, like in my mind you’ve succeeded, right?

Sophie: Because as an insomniac, and I don’t even say I’m an insomniac anymore. I used to say that. And I attach an identity to myself Oh, I’m an insomniac, I don’t say that anymore. But yeah, when I was like, Yeah, I’m an insomniac. Sometimes I get three hours of sleep. Sometimes I get four.

Sophie: Like I was all always focused on the data. And also another thing that just pops to mind, it’s random, but like someone on your podcast had said that they were afraid of how they would look when they’re tired or when they haven’t sleep, slept and. I was like, you know what, this is something I’m concerned about as well the bags under my eyes, and they’ll be like, oh, look at this mom, she’s not sleeping, and that person said that they had, I think they had taken pictures of when they had slept versus when they didn’t, and objectively, they couldn’t tell the difference.

Sophie: And that was also such a realization to me. Sometimes I’d look at me and myself in the mirror after eight hours sleep. And I was like, you know what, if I didn’t know that I got eight hours, I would still think that I was tired. I still look like a parent who’s tired. So yeah, again, like all these things, like when you’re not sleeping, your brain is just trying to pick up on all the little things that tells that you’re not sleeping and yeah, I’m going to go to the grocery store and they all know that I haven’t slept and what, why does it matter, and and then I was also focusing on if I look at someone on TV, I’d be like, Oh, this person doesn’t look like they’re sleeping much either.

Sophie: And I was just so focused on the look of yeah, like bags under the eyes and stuff. And now I don’t even care about that anymore. I’m like whatever people look like they look and, no one sometimes I tell people like haven’t slept at all last night, like for that gig, for example, I was like, I don’t know how it’s gonna go.

Sophie: I haven’t slept at all. And they’d be like, Oh, it didn’t really show. I was like, Wow, this is crazy.

Martin: I wonder if it just comes down to this idea of independent action. So just this realization or just this ongoing practice of building experience in acting independently of the number of hours of sleep we got the number of hours we were awake, what that quality of sleep felt like what sleep might be like if we do things like travel And because really it always comes back to we’re at this point in time where we have a choice.

Should I do that gig because I had really difficult nights of sleep in the build up. Should I go into work? Should I travel? Should I go camping? We got a choice to make, right? We can do that stuff and accept that it might be more difficult, there might be difficult nights, it might be less enjoyable perhaps we might not sleep as well, none of that stuff we can really control, but we can control that action, we can do things that matter.

Martin: The only other alternative I’ve still not managed to figure out another alternative. As far as I know, the only other alternative is to, we’ve got that choice, and then we start to say no to things that matter to us. We decide that we’re not going to go camping. We’re not going to go traveling. We’re not going to take on big projects at work.

All of these things, which are actions we can control, we’re now withdrawing from and we’re doing less. So we’re not really living the kind of life we want to live. And all of this difficult stuff that we’re trying to appease through those actions, like our sleep and our thoughts and our feelings, they don’t really tend to respond that favorably anyway, to all of that stuff.

Martin: So we’ve still got the sleep disruption, the sleep difficulties, and all the thoughts and feelings that come with that. But on top of that, now we’re just getting pulled away more and more from the life we want to live. And it’s almost like we lose control over our actions, and that just very rarely makes things any easier or any better.

Martin: What would you say was the most difficult change that you made. That, upon reflection, you feel like, that was one of the most helpful things that I did to start moving away from this endless struggle with sleep?

Sophie: it’s so relative, right? Because you’re like the most difficult thing that comes to mind is where you go to sleep a little later. But like, when I compare that to how difficult it was to not have tools and not sleep. It was not difficult at all,

Sophie: for me, the most difficult part was to not know and be disempowered and not have options that, because I’m always like, there must be a way, I had we had a situation like this. We went through IVF for to conceive and that was the same idea of like we’re trying and nothing is working, and that’s for me for my type of personality when I can’t be.

Sophie: Doing something to solve a problem. That’s the worst case scenario for me because i’ve always believed that there’s a way to solve things. That’s been my philosophy. So so when I found myself with insomnia, I’d felt a bit like that coming back to that journey of not being able to conceive because I felt like there’s no tools.

Sophie: They’re like everything i’m trying is not working And that was the difficult part. The difficult part was not to sign up for your amazing program, and do the work that I knew had worked for so many people. That was the easy part, was like, Okay, I’m hopeful again, I know that if I’m doing this, even if it’s hard for a week, What is it a week over like the few months that I was not feeling like a good mother and I was like, not, I was super moody with my partner and not feeling like myself like This is nothing.

Martin: You made a really good point there about, yeah, change is difficult. But when you’re able to compare it to what you’re doing right now, how difficult is that on balance? We’ve got two options. We’ve got the difficult situation we’re in now, or we’ve got the change, which is also difficult.

Martin: So we’ve got a choice of two difficult things. If we know that one of the difficult things isn’t really working for us, how about we try the other difficult thing?

Sophie: If you’re changing, like the change will be difficult, but it’s going to be difficult over a shorter amount of time than if you’re just, you just keep yourself in this current situation that’s difficult and it’s endless, right?

Martin: Yeah, that’s a really good point. Yeah. If we. find that we’re in a situation where the things that we’re doing aren’t proving to be helpful, then we’re in a difficult position, and really there’s no, no end in sight. What if we try an alternative approach that’s also difficult, but it’s something that might have an end in sight that might give us a different result?

Martin: Then , Even if nothing else, maybe we just see it as an experiment and we just say to ourselves, you know what, I’m just going to go all in and I’m going to try this new thing for say two weeks. I’ll give it a couple of weeks where I’ll really commit to it and I’ll just see it as an experiment.

Sophie: What the worst that could happen, right? The worst that could happen is that it doesn’t work for you, but I don’t know. For me, just listening to all the people on your podcast, it was just like, why wouldn’t it work for me, right? I’m someone who can follow a plan. I’m as intelligent as all these people.

Sophie: There’s no reason why this wouldn’t work other than if I don’t do the work. It was how I approached it.

Martin: We’ve got that logical mind that tells us, other people have found this helpful, so why wouldn’t I find it helpful, but then we’ve also got that kind of problem solving mind that’s going to be like you’ve tried all these different things, they’ve not worked, what if this doesn’t work, what if you’re the only person, what if you try this and it doesn’t work, then what?

Martin: Then that means that you really are broken, that you really are a failure, that you really, there is really is something uniquely wrong. So sometimes we just have to take that leap of faith and just give change a chance give a different approach a chance.

Sophie: And I would add, give change a chance for long enough, right? So sometimes if someone maybe tried it for a few days and they’re like it’s not working. Maybe you haven’t tried long enough, and for me, that’s why also I wanted to do your program was to have really okay, how long should I do this, be doing this for have like more of a clear parameters of like, When can I say that this is not working for me?

Sophie: Cause like you can hear different advice, but like when you don’t have a specific plan, like I don’t think you can really tell if something is working or not if you don’t have like clear guidance on what it is that you should be doing.

Martin: Another thing as well that I think, maybe this is a reflective exercise in some self kindness perhaps, but , just because it feels like we have no options or no alternative or no way out, that doesn’t mean that’s true. It just means we haven’t found that way out yet. And I think that can just be so powerful because it is really easy to just feel completely trapped that there’s no way forward.

Martin: But really, all that means is we just haven’t found the approach that’s right for us yet. The approach is out there. I might not know where it is, but we have to practice, we have to experiment, we have to try different things. And that’s really what matters. I’m yet to find someone with insomnia whose experience with sleep or their struggle with sleep is completely unique.

Martin: Every client I work with is a unique individual. But when they share their struggle with me, it’s almost identical from person to person, and it’s about that struggle that happens when we completely understandably get tangled up into trying to control, trying to fix, putting pressure on ourselves, putting effort into things that we can’t really directly or permanently control.

Martin: When you enrolled in my course and the kind of goals that you had for yourself I think that you touched upon one, which was sharing your bed with your partner. That was important for you to do. Another couple of things that you share was you just wanted to feel more energized during the day, have that zest for life back.

Martin: And you wanted to just feel like you had to. Control over your own life again. Your actions weren’t there to serve insomnia. They were there to serve you.

Sophie: And hopeful for a growing family as well. That was a big goal.

Martin: How do you feel you’re doing with those goals now?

Sophie: I would say my goals have been achieved. And, at first I was feeling anxious about the limited access to your course. I think it was like a few months access and I was like, what if my sleep is not fixed by then? And, I was just your brain is always constantly busy. you threats and stuff like that. And when the expiry came like a few, I think it was last month. I was like cool. I was like, I don’t need this anymore. I’m, I feel like I’m fixed or I don’t know, or I’m healed. It might be a better word. But and I know the tools and I know I can go back to them.

Sophie: And they’ve worked for me once, they will work for me again. And I would not hesitate if I was in a really bad relapse and I was like, okay, I’m trying to tools are not working. I would not hesitate to sign up again to get the support again. But right now I just don’t feel like sleep is a thing anymore for me.

Sophie: And it doesn’t impact the way I live my life. Doesn’t impact my travel plans, like I never think, Oh, what if I’m not sleeping? I’m not going to do this trip. Like it’s never a thing anymore. So I feel freed up from my insomnia and it’s not an identity that I carry anymore.

Martin: How long would you say that it took for you to get to that point that you just described? Where it feels like you’re not just tangled up in this ongoing struggle. That sleep, the thoughts and feelings that can come based on how we sleep didn’t really have much power and influence over your life anymore?

Sophie: It took me about three weeks to feel like I was in control again and that I was getting the sleep that I needed, so that was pretty immediate for me. But to get to the point where I don’t identify anymore with insomniac would say a few months.

Martin: No doubt there were some ups and downs along the way.

Sophie: Yeah, and what I was with the gig it was a one off night where I didn’t sleep at all and then it was good again, And the thing that they is I trusted that the next day I’d have a good night’s sleep Because I always hear you saying like a bad night You can always comfort yourself that a bad night’s sleep means that you’ll have a good one coming up And so I was like, okay, it’s fine.

Sophie: I haven’t slept today. But like I was not like, oh no, I’m in a relapse of insomnia, I just considered that a one off bad night’s sleep that like you say, everybody has once in a while. So it’s not like my mind went to Oh no, I’m going back to insomnia. Yeah so I do still have bad night’s sleep, but like I said, I’m not associating the same meaning with them.

Sophie: And I think that’s what that’s why I’m not going back into a longer relapse is because I don’t say oh no this is a bad night’s sleep, I’m going back to insomnia and then the thoughts are kicking in and keeping you away from sleeping because you’re worried, right?

Martin: Yeah, that, that power and influence of sleep has just gone down markedly. Well, Sophie I’m really grateful for the time you’ve taken out your day to come on. I got one last question for you. It’s a question that I ask everyone, so I don’t want you to feel left out. And it’s this, if someone with chronic insomnia is listening and they feel as though they’ve tried everything, that they’re beyond help, that they’ll just never be able to stop struggling with insomnia, what would you say to them?

Sophie: Signing up for Martin’s program. Honestly, like this is the only advice I have like what’s the worst that could happen if you were to try? And, yeah, it’s worked so well for me that it’s easy for me to recommend that, but listen to all the other people’s interviews and see how they did and maybe find a story that resonates with yours too for me the interview of the woman with postpartum insomnia.

Sophie: Was the one that resonated more with me because it was more similar to what I had experienced But find that story and that hope again and like just go for it like honestly, you’re worth it and your life is worth it and Yeah, go for it!

Martin: I really appreciate those kind words. The result and the change happened because of the changes that you made, your openness, your curiosity, your willingness to try a new approach, even though you tried so many things up to that point that hadn’t been helpful. You were still open enough and willing enough to explore the possibility that there was something still out there that could help, and you committed to making changes.

Martin: And change, as we talked about, is rarely easy. It’s often difficult. It comes with ups and downs. Really that all the benefits that you’re getting, 99. 9 percent of your transformation was down to you your own strengths, your own natural ability to sleep, your own character and your own commitment to change.

Martin: I was really just your guide. It does take work and effort. But without change, nothing changes.

Sophie: Totally. But I think like we all have a tipping point too. And for me, that was that morning where I couldn’t go drop my son off in daycare. And for someone else, it might be something else, right? Maybe not being able to attend their daughter’s wedding. Or, I think there’s things that matters to us and it all vary depending what’s going on.

Sophie: And, but when you reach that tipping point and that rock bottom, I think, yeah, I think your willingness to change is the greatest. And when you find a resource that, that gives you hope, I think that’s the combination of that tipping point and defining the resource that makes you take action and follow through.

Martin: Thank you again, Sophie, for coming on to the podcast. It’s been really good just hearing you share your experience. I’ve got no doubt that many people listening, everyone listening, I think, is going to find this helpful. So thank you.

Sophie: Maybe listening to it in the middle of the night as I did and finding hope again. So yeah, no problem. It was a pleasure to speak with you.

Martin: Thanks for listening to the Insomnia Coach Podcast. If you’re ready to get your life back from insomnia, I would love to help. You can learn more about the sleep coaching programs I offer at Insomnia Coach — and, if you have any questions, you can email me.

Martin: I hope you enjoyed this episode of the Insomnia Coach Podcast. I’m Martin Reed, and as always, I’d like to leave you with this important reminder — you are not alone and you can sleep.