Prozac and ChatGPT: How Technology is Changing the Way We See Ourselves - Ep. 15 with Peter D. Kramer

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Mar 20, 2024

In this enlightening discussion, psychiatrist Peter D. Kramer shares his insights on how antidepressants like Prozac reshape personality and self-perception. He cites his own experiences and debunks myths around these medications, emphasizing their role in enhancing boldness and emotional resilience. The conversation also explores the parallels between medication and AI technologies like ChatGPT, examining how each impacts human identity and perceptions of mental health. Kramer challenges us to reflect on the future of self-understanding in a tech-driven world.

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ANECDOTE

Psychiatry vs. Therapy

Dan Shipper's experience with psychiatrists was that they primarily focused on prescribing medications without much explanation.
Therapists, conversely, seemed more interested in the human experience and providing context, highlighting a perceived divide in the field.

INSIGHT

Origin of Listening to Prozac

Peter Kramer's interest in psychiatry stemmed from his own positive experience with psychoanalysis and other therapies.
Observing patients' responses to Prozac, he noticed changes beyond mood, leading him to explore the drug's impact on personality and self-perception.

INSIGHT

Technology's Impact on Self

Prozac, like ChatGPT, acts as a technology changing self-perception and world view.
This parallels other technological advancements, like the PC revolution, documented by Tracy Kidder.

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Dom Quixote

Xavier, Alberto

Don Quixote, written by Miguel de Cervantes, tells the story of Alonso Quixano, a middle-aged gentleman who, influenced by his extensive reading of chivalric romances, decides to become a knight-errant. He renames himself Don Quixote and, with his squire Sancho Panza, embarks on a series of adventures. These adventures often involve Don Quixote's misinterpretation of reality, such as mistaking windmills for giants and inns for castles. The novel explores themes of reality vs. imagination, the decline of chivalry, and the human condition. Eventually, Don Quixote returns home, regains his sanity, and renounces his chivalric ambitions before his death.

Oranges

John McPhee

Originally conceived as a short magazine article about oranges and orange juice, John McPhee's book 'Oranges' evolved into a detailed exploration of the fruit. It includes sketches of orange growers, botanists, pickers, packers, early settlers on Florida's Indian River, the first orange barons, and modern concentrate makers. The book also features a profile of Ben Hill Griffin, who may be the last of the individual orange barons. McPhee's work is highly readable, frequently amusing, and covers a wide range of historical and cultural aspects of oranges, from the great orangeries of European monarchs to modern customs in the Caribbean.

Listening to Prozac

A Psychiatrist Explores Antidepressant Drugs and the Remaking of the Self

Peter D. Kramer

In 'Listening to Prozac,' Peter D. Kramer discusses the philosophical, ethical, and social consequences of using psychopharmacology to change one's personality. The book examines how Prozac and similar antidepressants affect mood and personality, raising questions about what constitutes mental illness and the implications of medication-induced personality changes. Kramer presents case studies and explores the concept of 'cosmetic pharmacology,' where medications can shape and perfect minds, similar to how plastic surgery shapes bodies. The book delves into the broader societal and ethical issues surrounding the use of antidepressants beyond treating depression, including their potential use in healthy individuals to enhance personality traits.

The Soul of a New Machine

Tracy Kidder

The Soul of a New Machine is a Pulitzer Prize-winning book that tells the story of a team of engineers at Data General who were tasked with designing a new 32-bit minicomputer, the Eclipse MV/8000, to compete with Digital Equipment Corporation's VAX computer. The book, written by Tracy Kidder, provides a detailed and compelling account of the engineers' year-long effort, highlighting the intense work ethic, technological innovations, and personal sacrifices involved in the project. It explores the culture of the high-tech industry, the grassroots approach to innovation, and the tension between engineering quality and time to market. The book is praised for its narrative art and its insight into the human side of technological development.

Should you leave?

A Psychiatrist Explores Intimacy and Autonomy--and the Nature of Advice

Peter D. Kramer

Ordinarily well

Peter D. Kramer

In 'Ordinarily Well', Peter D. Kramer presents a comprehensive argument for the effectiveness of antidepressants, combining patient narratives with a critical analysis of drug research. He addresses the skepticism surrounding antidepressants by examining industry-sponsored studies and statistical interpretations, advocating for a balanced approach that values both clinical wisdom and scientific evidence.

Against Depression

Peter D. Kramer

In 'Against Depression', Peter Kramer offers a frank and unflinching look at depression, refuting the notion of 'heroic melancholy' and highlighting it as a devastating disease. The book provides groundbreaking research and pathways toward resilience, promising hope to those affected by depression. Kramer argues that depression is a serious health concern, often misunderstood as a source of creativity or character.

Against Depression

Peter D. Kramer

In 'Against Depression', Peter Kramer provides a bold revision of our understanding of mood disorders, refuting the notion of 'heroic melancholy' and highlighting depression as a devastating disease. The book offers pathways toward resilience and hope for those suffering from depression.

Making hay

Verlyn Klinkenborg

In 'Making Hay', Verlyn Klinkenborg offers a poignant and humorous glimpse into the lives of farmers in northwestern Iowa, southwestern Minnesota, and Montana's Big Hole Valley. The book explores the process of harvesting hay, weaving a narrative that highlights the challenges and richness of rural living. Klinkenborg's prose is both simple and evocative, capturing the essence of a way of life that is increasingly at risk.

Death of the Great Man

Peter D. Kramer

Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote

Jorge Luis Borges

En este cuento, Borges presenta a Pierre Menard, un escritor francés que busca recrear Don Quijote de Miguel de Cervantes, no mediante una traducción o copia, sino reescribiéndolo exactamente como lo hizo Cervantes. A través de esta paradoja, Borges cuestiona la naturaleza de la autoría y la interpretación literaria. El cuento forma parte de su colección Ficciones.

Antidepressants changed my life.

I have OCD and antidepressants did what nearly a decade of therapy, meditation, and supplements couldn’t: they allowed me to live my life without being in a 24/7 spiral. (Bonus: they actually made therapy and meditation far more helpful once they started to work.)

I think antidepressants are seriously misunderstood. Yes, they blunt negative emotions. But they also operate on personality and sense of self: they can make you bolder, less sensitive to failure, and less risk-averse.

In short: they are a technology that changes how we see ourselves and the world.

That’s why I invited Dr. Peter D. Kramer on my show. Dr. Kramer is a psychiatrist and the author of eight books, including Listening to Prozac, which is an international bestseller. He has practiced psychiatry and taught psychotherapy at Brown University for nearly four decades.

Listening To Prozac is one of my favorite books, and it documents Dr. Kramer’s experiences as a psychiatrist seeing how antidepressants like Prozac changed his patients’ sense of self and personality.

Now, you might be wondering why have him on a show about ChatGPT? Well, technology can change who we are even if it comes as a software product rather than a pill. It’s undoubtedly true that as generations of humans learn to live with AI, it will change what it means to be human—and how we see ourselves and the world. I think that can be a good thing, but it could also be scary.

I wanted to talk to Dr. Kramer about his book, and see if we could apply some of his insights in Prozac to ChatGPT. It was an incredible conversation, and I was honored to talk to him.

Want even more?

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To hear more from Dan Shipper:

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Follow him on X: https://twitter.com/danshipper

To learn more about the topics in this episode:

Listening to Prozac by Peter D. Kramer
ChatGPT and the Future of the Human Mind by Dan Shipper
SSRIs by Scott Alexander

Timestamps:

Introduction: 00:50
How technology changes the way we see ourselves and the world: 08:24
Antidepressants and their impact on our personality and sense of self: 21:25
How the availability of a technological solution prompts us to see the problem everywhere: 26:35
Technology alters the categories we have divided the world into: 34:06
How I use ChatGPT in my writing process: 40:05
Experimenting with ChatGPT to get relationship advice: 45:41
Prompting ChatGPT to be more specific: 51:16
Clearly indicate the tone you want ChatGPT to take: 55:11
Dr. Peter D. Kramer’s final thoughts on ChatGPT as a therapist: 1:02:27

Links to resources mentioned in the episode:

Dr. Peter D. Kramer: https://twitter.com/PeterDKramer
ChatGPT and the Future of the Human Mind by Dan Shipper: https://every.to/chain-of-thought/chatgpt-and-the-future-of-the-human-mind
Listening to Prozac by Dr. Kramer: https://www.amazon.com/Listening-Prozac-Landmark-Antidepressants-Remaking/dp/0140266712
Should You Leave? by Dr. Kramer: https://www.amazon.com/Should-You-Leave-Psychiatrist-Autonomy/dp/0140272798
Against Depression by Dr. Kramer: https://www.amazon.com/Against-Depression-Peter-D-Kramer/dp/0143036963
Ordinarily Well by Dr. Kramer: https://www.amazon.com/Ordinarily-Well-Antidepressants-Peter-Kramer/dp/0374536961
Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote by Jorge Luis Borges: https://raley.english.ucsb.edu/wp-content/Engl10/Pierre-Menard.pdf
The Soul of A New Machine by Tracy Kidder: https://www.amazon.com/Soul-New-Machine-Tracy-Kidder/dp/0316491977
Making Hay by Verlyn Klinkenborg: https://www.amazon.com/Making-Hay-Verlyn-Klinkenborg/dp/0941130185
Oranges by John McPhee: https://www.amazon.com/Oranges-John-McPhee/dp/0374512973