This week, we’re joined by Mike Petrow, who serves as the Director of Formation, Faculty Relations, and Theological Foundations at the Center for Action and Contemplation. The CAC is a nonprofit founded by Father Richard Rohr that introduces seekers to the contemplative Christian path of transformation.

Mike is intimately involved with the CAC’s Living School, a core educational offering from the CAC that last year offered a course called Essentials of Engaged Contemplation that Tim and I participated in. Mike is one of the primary hosts in the conversations that make up much of the program, often conversing with people like Richard Rohr and our friend Brian McLaren. Frankly, we found the work that Mike and the rest of the CAC team did on this course to be truly life-changing, and engaging it has been one of the most uplifting and transformative spiritual experiences we’ve had in our lives. In addition to his work at the CAC, Mike holds degrees (including a PhD) in psychology, mythology, and religious studies.

This conversation is a sample of just how deeply insightful Mike is. He invited us to see curiosity as something “implanted in our hearts by God”—not as a threat to faith, but as an invitation to let the divine meet us in unexpected ways. He challenged the idea that “community is formed around uniformity of belief” and instead argued that real connection happens when we learn to be with each other, even in our differences — that everyone belongs even, or perhaps especially, when they fall somehow outside the norm. And he brought so much depth to the idea of the wounded healer —“if you deeply commit to your own healing,” Mike told us, “at a certain point you realize it’s not just for you.”

In one of the most powerful moments of this conversation, Mike describes a moment of profound loss—sitting at his mother’s bedside as she passed away—and then, just hours later, holding his newborn niece for the first time. These moments of symmetry revealed a truth that is at the heart of this entire conversation: that loss, and grief, and pain carve out a space in our hearts that can eventually be filled with love, joy and connection.

We hope this conversation offers the same sense of healing, hope, and clarity that it did for us. And with that, let’s jump into this beautiful conversation with Mike Petrow.

Thanks so much for listening, and we want to send a huge thanks to Mike for coming on. For those of you who might have been wondering more about the Living School, the Essentials of Engaged Contemplation that Aubrey and I participated in, the course is not currently open for enrollment, but if you’re interested in learning more or getting updates, you can head to cac.org.

And if Faith Matters content is resonating with you and you get a chance, we’d love for you to leave us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. We love reading reviews and they definitely help get the word about about Faith Matters.

Thanks again for listening, and as always, you can check out more at faithmatters.org.

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