The Ezra Klein Show

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We Are Going to Have to Live Here With Each Other

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Sep 16, 2025

Guest

Ben Shapiro

In a thought-provoking conversation, Ben Shapiro, a prominent conservative voice and co-founder of The Daily Wire, discusses the alarming rise of political violence and its implications for societal discourse. He explores the dynamics of coalition-building amid ideological divides and reflects on the legacy of Barack Obama, especially regarding race relations. Shapiro challenges the notion of political identity through ‘lions and scavengers’, advocating for individual responsibility while critiquing the rising polarization in modern politics. This dialogue provides a nuanced look at empathy, grievance, and the shifting landscape of American political thought.

01:55:36

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INSIGHT

Violence Undermines The Body Politic

Ezra Klein argues political violence threatens democracy and binds enemies when it targets participants in politics.
He says grieving for Charlie Kirk shows the need to see the bullet as an attack on the whole body politic.

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ADVICE

Choose The Political Off-Ramp

Klein urges individuals to choose an off-ramp from retaliatory cycles instead of returning violence with violence.
He emphasizes personal agency in deciding whether this moment escalates or becomes a point of de-escalation.

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ANECDOTE

London Protest Prompted The Book

Ben Shapiro recounts being kept outside London after October 7th due to safety concerns around a large protest.
That protest mixed far-left, Islamist-sympathetic, and anti-capitalist protesters, sparking his question why such coalitions form.

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Navigating Political Violence and Discourse

02:25 • 10min

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The Lions and Scavengers of Society: A Theory of Constructive vs. Destructive Instincts

12:42 • 2min

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The Shifting Landscape of Political Coalitions

14:17 • 17min

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Race and Obama's Legacy

31:12 • 6min

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Political Influence and Business Innovation

37:08 • 2min

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Tensions in Western Civilization

39:22 • 19min

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Scavengers and Lions: Trump’s Political Identity

58:06 • 7min

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The Complex Relationship Between Empathy and Grievance in Politics

01:04:50 • 2min

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Individual Responsibility and Biblical Worldviews

01:06:47 • 5min

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Political Beliefs in the Evangelical Movement

01:11:18 • 22min

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Navigating Political Polarization

01:33:11 • 22min

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Exploring Trumpism and Economic Perspectives

01:54:43 • 4min

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#2749

• Mentioned in 11 episodes

The constitution of liberty

Friedrich Von Hayek

In this classic work, Hayek restates the ideals of freedom that he believes have guided the growth of Western civilization. The book is divided into three parts: 'The Value of Freedom,' which provides the philosophical foundation and justification of a free society; 'Freedom and the Law,' which discusses the development of the Rule of Law; and 'Freedom in the Welfare State,' which examines various areas of contemporary policy in light of the principles developed earlier. Hayek argues that liberty is essential for innovation and progress, and he warns against excessive government control and the stifling of spontaneous forces in society. He also explores the balance between individual freedoms and necessary government intervention, emphasizing the importance of the rule of law in ensuring individual liberty within a democratic society.

#291

• Mentioned in 58 episodes

Democracy in America

Alexis de Tocqueville

Written after his travels in the United States, 'Democracy in America' is a comprehensive study of American society and government. Tocqueville examines the democratic revolution and its impact on American life, discussing topics such as the sovereignty of the people, the role of civil society, the dangers of the tyranny of the majority, and the influence of religion and individualism. The book is a philosophical and political analysis that aims to understand why republican representative democracy succeeded in the United States while failing in other places, and it offers insights into the future of democracy both in America and globally.

#861

• Mentioned in 27 episodes

The true believer

Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements

Eric Hoffer

Published in 1951, 'The True Believer' is a landmark work in social psychology that provides a visionary and provocative look into the mind of the fanatic and the dynamics of mass movements. Hoffer argues that ideologies are interchangeable for true believers, who are driven by personal frustrations and a desire for certainty and belonging. The book is highly relevant today, offering insights into political fanaticism, the rise of mass movements, and the dangers of unthinking adherence to any cause. It has been praised for its concise and insightful analysis, making it a significant contribution to social thought.

#2482

• Mentioned in 12 episodes

Superabundance

Gale L. Pooley

Marian L. Tupy

In 'Superabundance', Marian L. Tupy and Gale L. Pooley challenge conventional wisdom by showing that population growth has led to increased resource abundance. They argue that more people generate more ideas, leading to innovations that improve living standards. The book emphasizes the importance of freedom in fostering this 'superabundance'.

#170

• Mentioned in 85 episodes

Lions and Scavengers

Ben Shapiro

#3096

• Mentioned in 10 episodes

The Right Side of History

How Reason and Moral Purpose Made the West Great

Ben Shapiro

In this book, Ben Shapiro argues that Western civilization is experiencing a crisis due to the abandonment of Judeo-Christian values and the Greek-born faculty of reason. He contends that these values, which have shaped Western society, are being replaced by hedonism, materialism, and moral subjectivism. Shapiro traces the history of Western thought over 3,500 years, highlighting the contributions of philosophers and the impact of these values on science, human rights, prosperity, and peace. He emphasizes the need to return to these foundational values to reverse the decline of Western civilization and maintain its greatness.

#103

• Mentioned in 117 episodes

Dominion

The Power of Man, the Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy

Matthew Scully

In 'Dominion,' Matthew Scully presents a comprehensive and eloquent case against the mistreatment of animals. The book delves into various aspects of animal suffering, including factory farming, hunting, whaling, and laboratory experiments. Scully challenges the notion that humans have unlimited dominion over animals, as suggested by biblical interpretations, and argues for a moral and compassionate approach to animal treatment. He draws on both religious and scientific perspectives to make his case, emphasizing the importance of empathy and the recognition of animal consciousness and suffering. The book is a call to action for reform and a plea for human benevolence and mercy towards animals.

#39

• Mentioned in 192 episodes

Hillbilly Elegy

A Memoir of a Family and Culture in Crisis

JD Vance

In 'Hillbilly Elegy,' J.D. Vance recounts his life growing up in a dysfunctional family in Middletown, Ohio, with roots in Kentucky's Appalachia. The book details his experiences with poverty, addiction, and family violence, as well as his journey to joining the marines and eventually graduating from Yale Law School. Vance provides a personal and insightful look into the decline of the white working class in America, exploring themes of family, culture, and the loss of the American dream. The memoir also touches on the political swing of the region, particularly in relation to the 2016 presidential election and the appeal of Donald Trump to this demographic.

This is an episode in two parts. First, my thoughts on Charlie Kirk’s murder, now that I’ve had a few days to process it, and to see the unfolding reactions and responses on both sides. Then a conversation with Ben Shapiro — one that was recorded shortly before Kirk’s assassination, but that has a different significance after it.

This episode contains strong language.

Mentioned:

“Charlie Kirk Was Practicing Politics the Right Way” by Ezra Klein

Dominion by Tom Holland

“What J.D. Vance Believes” by Ross Douthat

Book Recommendations:

Superabundance by Marian Tupy and Gale Pooley

Democracy in America by Alexis de Tocqueville

The Constitution of Liberty by F.A. Hayek

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html

This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin and Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Carole Sabouraud, Sonia Herrero and Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.

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