Kim Doyal 0:01

Welcome to F the hustle. I'm your host, Kim Doyal. You want a life that is meaningful and exciting. In this podcast, we're going to talk about launching and growing an online business that fits your lifestyle. After the hustle is all about doing good work, building real relationships, and most importantly, creating a business that supports where you want to live your life. You don't have to sacrifice the quality of your life today to create something that sets your soul on fire. And yes, that includes making a lot of money. So we'll be talking about selling, charging, what you're worth, and help earning more means helping more people. My goal is to help you find freedom and create a business on your turn. Hey, what up what up? I am super excited today. My guest needs no introduction, but I will introduce him. We're not going to do the typical rewind of tell us about your backstory, because he's been on the show a few times. My guess is my good friend Jason Resnick. Jason, thanks for being here today.

Jason Resnick 0:58

Yeah, thanks for having me, Kim. Um, I can talk nerdy about email all day long. So I'm happy to be here.

Kim Doyal 1:06

Yeah, and I always feel a little guilty when I'm like picking your brain on our other calls. I'm like, like, I should be paying for this. But I'm grateful for everything. So I have to explain to the listeners, viewers, why I asked you to do this, because it was kind of funny how this whole thing started. So for those of you who are not familiar, Jason and I ran an experiment last year, we have, we had a newsletter called Get deliberate, where every single issue of the newsletter was an experiment on growing your email list and adding subscribers and we did it from scratch with that brand. And so we kind of hit a point where it was like, I don't know, have we covered a lot, I think 40 Something issues of that. And so we put it on pause the contents amazing, we're going to repurpose that repackage it somehow at some point this year, but this is what happened. So we have we Jason and I both use ConvertKit. And by the way, Jason has nurture kit.com where he's, he is a ConvertKit, expert, duck, duck nurture. kit.co Sorry about that. And of course, res.com but and I'll have all the links in the show notes. So just stay focused on the show. So here's the story behind the evolution of this experiment and conversation that we're gonna have today is that so Jason and I both use ConvertKit. And then we use ConvertKit. For deliver it? Well, because of that we know ConvertKit sends you a weekly summary of sales and conversions that you've had with with your email marketing, once every week, because deliver it was linked to Jason's account and my app and my personal account, we each had it linked. So I was getting these emails, it's like, here your ConvertKit sales, and every week it was I don't know, do you mind me giving numbers through automations? Okay, all right, you know, 1200 $1,500 every single week, and I'm like, well, this isn't my shit. Excuse the language, but it was just like, What is he doing? Because, honestly, Jason, so I have a follow up sequence. And I offer something at the end of it through one, one lead magnet at the same time. There's so many other things that can happen. And it took me way too long, if I'm being brutally honest, to implement that. Because, you know, I just, there's always so much to do is how it feels. And I've had my account, I don't know how long at this point. I'm like, I need to go in and clean up and do this and whatnot. And then I get into everything is liquid, and then I want to do coats. Right? But you've totally simplified that. So for everybody. I just wanted to explain, like Jason lives, breathes, implements, just does all the things. He's not just talking to talk. And I witnessed it firsthand. So I'm like, Alright, this is a priority for me this year with with my personal brand. And of course with create it the content planner, and I use clay VO. So I've already committed to Jason to taking what he teaches me and implement it because it's really platform agnostic, correct. I hope I'm using agnostic correctly.

Jason Resnick 4:18

Yeah, no, I mean, it's 100%. I mean, because like I like I am a developer. And there was like, that's what I grew up with. And that's what I started my career as. And I learned a long time ago that it's just syntax, right? Like if you understand the methods, the theories, the process behind something, then it's just a matter of applying a language on top. So whether you're using ConvertKit, whether you're using Klaviyo, whether it's active campaign, as long as the functionality on that platform is there, the methods and the teachings that I talk about all the time and work just fine. You just have to figure out what buttons to push. That's all.

Kim Doyal 5:05

Well, and at this point, most of the email service providers use the same language, right tags, segments lists. I mean, there's, there's, for the most part of

Jason Resnick 5:16

maps, yes, or no matter of speaking this, I feel like there's like a 2.0. So, like, there, there's the A Weber's and the constant contacts. And, you know, those kinds of folks that are still very much there. They have a lot of customers, they do well, because it just serves that audience. Then there's MailChimp, which I guess maybe even a Weber a tiny bit with, they're kind of bridging the gap, but they're trying to like turn the Titanic, right. Like they just they were part of that first version, right?

Kim Doyal 5:54

Turn.

Jason Resnick 5:57

Yeah, I mean, that's, I mean, they, they start implementing tags, they start implementing audiences, but they're still very much on list based platform. And that's what version one is, it's any email subscriber is subscribed to a list that you have. And that list is tied to a form. So if you have three forms, you essentially have three lists, even if the same person exists on all of those three lists. So that's kind of how they segmented or bucketed people then version 2.0 came out with the active campaigns and drip and Infusionsoft later you know, I guess I should say confusion self as the first one. Yeah. Now, I mean, which is why they changed the name to keep I think

Kim Doyal 6:44

I'm pretty sure I probably well, yeah, I think Russell Brunson had way too much fun with that one, go ahead.

Jason Resnick 6:51

And they started the new trend where it was tags and they were very much tag driven. So it was no matter how many forms you have, you have 100 forms the same person opts into that full, all 100 forms. They only exist once in your platform so Infusionsoft has it. Active Campaign has it drip ConvertKit Klaviyo they're all carp part of that new new breed, I would say. And then there's, I call them the youngins, which are like the beehives and the sub stacks and so on and so forth who are are serving a need out there. They're just not as advanced as that, you know, like Infusionsoft Active Campaign and so on. So, you know, for me, there's definitely different buckets, but for the most part, you can throw a rock and hit an email marketing platform that has a tag based management system and that's really what you're looking for, especially with what you know, we're trying to do for our businesses as well as who I help my clients with. Yeah,

Kim Doyal 7:57

I have to tell you so you're using clay VO and for I think it's clay vo I don't know if it's clay vo or Clavijo. I'm going to keep saying clay vo only because I heard one of their people say it on the webinar. So you know it No, but it's kind of like a Zapier. Zapier, like with whatever wrap your

Jason Resnick 8:16

head they had to come out with like a post right? They will exactly like zappy

Kim Doyal 8:20

happier. Yeah, Zapier. That was it. So but it was interesting with Klaviyo. So I integrated it using WooCommerce. And you and I had talked about it, right? I thought about show us active campaigns, I did want something that was really targeted towards EECOM. And that would be easier to use. And so with clay vo it was interesting. So I integrated it. And then it was, I felt like it was even a step above Active Campaign in terms of look, I only have to do this integration, once everything else then happens with flows. So like I didn't have to integrate it with specific lists or forms or tags even it's like it's integrated, then it's all up to you. Based on that initial, opt in, purchase whatever happens, like just create the flow, just create the flow and the conditions. And that felt. And maybe that's exactly what we did with that campaign. I don't remember that. But I felt like every time we were doing something new, we'd go in and create a new starting point versus one starting point of a purchase or opt in. And then everything else magic happens after that point. Does that make sense?

Jason Resnick 9:32

Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah. It's a tool, right? And like, especially, like you meet, I am solo. I mean, your daughter helps. Right? Like, there's not enough time. Right? And did you everything, so things have to be easy, and if they're not, and they're complicated or seem complicated, then we're not going to use it. Right. And for me, email has always been that like, it took me a long Time, I mean, a long time to say, Yeah, you know what, I'm gonna start writing emails, I'm gonna do it once a week or whatever, right like way longer than it ever should have right now. But even then I didn't learn my lesson because I was working with clients at that point in time, like 2016 2017 is when I transitioned my business straight to fully email marketing and automation. And I had clients that email daily, like I saw the numbers, revenue numbers, subscriber numbers, the lack of unsubscribes, because a lot of people worry about that. And I didn't do that until October of 2020. Right? I went six times a week, you know, like, I don't know what it is, even though I'm in it every single day. There's still like, a mindset with it. Like, I don't want to upset the applecart Right. Like if I don't have an email list, so I can't do this, or whatever it is, right? Like, I don't want to make people upset in some way. Right. And so there's definitely a mindset with it. But what a phrase that I love is, Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. And this is a Leonardo da Vinci quote. And for me, that's, that's been a common thread throughout my career programming, email automation, and so on. Because it's the simple things that when you do them, well, you can easily scale and not have to worry about it. Right, like you said, just now I have the entry point. And I'm just going to kind of bucket people into the paths that they need to go. Yeah, right. And so, you know, that's, that's what I talk about all the time. Like, I've direct everybody to the same landing page, like for my newsletter go there. You know, it is what it is. I have lead magnets on my site and things like that, but still even a lead magnet, people still find them in the same same tunnel, so to speak. Yeah, yeah. But it's critical that I start to segment people based off of where they are, to know, like, Hey, this is what I can do to help. These are the kinds of emails that I'm gonna send them, and so on, and so forth. Right. And so, for me, I mean, that's why ConvertKit can do a lot of these things yet, what I've found is, the ConvertKit customer doesn't want to be an email, they don't want to, they don't mind writing the email, they don't mind putting the content out there. But they don't want to one mess things up, too, they don't want multiple emails showing up in somebody's inbox at the same time. They want a system that just works, and they don't have to think about it. And it drives results from and, you know, whether it's a one person show a small team, all of the same philosophies and methods apply. It's just really the content, the content, the segmentation pieces, and how you're going to put, you know, your marketing resources behind that to grow the list. So, you know, for me, it's fun, because I get to learn a lot about different businesses. And I've worked with everybody from like TV talent coaches, that, you know, help athletes transition from the field, to the broadcast booth, to healthcare providers, to, you know, course creators, professional creators, people that sell, you know, communities, things like that. All of it is the same 75% of it is the same that works. And it's just fun to, to, it's fun to watch it happen, right? Like

Kim Doyal 13:53

it is,

Jason Resnick 13:55

and how like, it's just, it's just, it's funny, when, specifically it's funny, when we write out email sequences, I'm like, This email is designed to do this and get this response from people. And clients give me a little pushback, they like they want to hedge their bet I'm like, just let it go out. Like that's what it's supposed to do. Like if it's supposed to anticipate and create replies in your inbox and things like that and get people to say a certain thing. Just let it go out and then it goes out and then within six hours a client comes back like that was amazing. How do you know that down the road a few times and know what it's supposed to do you know? It's just fun to watch that all unfold because it's all human behavior and for me that you know, that's that's the fun part of it.

Kim Doyal 14:42

That's what I got excited about it and I've said that so many times like this shit works like I did the daily emails. I started doing it because same thing where I just said this, I've been in this too long. I'm gonna figure out email marketing, right and I was very much of the mindset of I want to bug people. I don't want to this, I don't want to that. And nobody likes them subscribes. Now I will look at who wants subscribed based on when they got on my list. So I'm very curious now to look at the data. So I'll go in, here's an example, I had recently done a summit, which I'm going to publicly declare that I'm not going to participate ENEOS the rest of the year, like it's a poll for my time and energy, you know, and this was, I've done some and they've delivered great results. I'm also though thinking I'd much rather just run ads to be honest with some of this, or do it strictly through content when you look at your time, right, anyways, needless to say, so But I started looking at who was coming in, out in recent unsubscribes. And, you know, I had an import from Active Campaign like in 2017. So a lot of people will unsubscribe from that. And that was still WordPress check stuff back then. For it's been very recent, through, like a recent Summit. So they've literally only received like, a little bit of a welcome sequence, maybe a newsletter I'm like, so it's, it's that to me is valuable data, right. But the point being the daily emails, I needed to find my voice and figure out how to write right? And I feel like in many ways, I've gotten stuck at the very basic stuff with I feel super comfortable writing an email, I don't mind. And I actually expect replies. Now I get like, Why didn't anybody answer me? Like I usually get, and they tend to be the same people. But that's fine, whatever, you know, but it's also making sure to your point of thinking more from a psychological perspective. And I think that's where people can shift the mindset, right is when you when you look at it. So here's an example I was thinking is, so before we started recording, Jason, I were talking about price points of courses and whatnot. And, you know, in the internet marketing space, it's the sevens, right? 4790 cent, whatever. And like to us, it's like, oh, gosh, you know, but you know what I was thinking about Jason, and it popped in my head after we were saying that was, we don't question the fact that everything in the other the real world in real life is 90 fives. It's been like that forever, who said that 95 is any better, right? But there are these psychological things. And it's just that we're conditioned. Like, I love looking at how do I take a real life example, and then apply it. So this one I've used so many times, but it's kind of like checking out at the grocery store. You don't get mad that there's gum and candy and batteries. And sometimes it's like, oh, shit, I forgot. I need batteries. I don't know why I'm swearing so much today. But anyways, so Jason's like, what else is new? But yeah, that's it. But you know, so it's kind of, but anything that we don't know, is going to feel uncomfortable. So I think with email marketing, there is a certain level of you have to learn to be comfortable with the discomfort while you're learning how to do this, right? Because I think it's like, a huge piece of it is mindset. The rest of it is learnable.

Jason Resnick 18:06

Right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, what I've found is super helpful, is like you said, like, it is mindset, that if you know the path that you want the subscriber to take, and you draw that out, visually, especially within like, the first 30 days? What is the path? What is the message? What is the beliefs that they have that I know are wrong, but how do I make it such that they see it? Right? All of these things, if you know, the key points that which you want to get across to the subscriber within the first 30 days, it's super helpful to kind of just draw it out on a whiteboard or iPad, whatever the case is, if somebody comes in through this form, over the next five days, I want them to get these five emails talking about, you know, this, that and the other. Right, and you craft that out, then you start to see key conversion points, right, like, okay, the end of the welcome sequence, they got my first pitch sequence, they started to get my weekly broadcast emails, right, the ones that, you know, you talk about every week, hey, I'm launching this, I'm doing that right. There is a jarring point at which when somebody comes onto your list if you just drop them into that, and then hey, last week, I talked about this, how does that person feel? Well, I didn't see last week because I just joined yesterday, right? And so how do you transition in a way right? So but if you understand all the the stepping stones, so to speak at of that initial subscriber, you can make that super engaged for them, that it just builds the trust, right? And so and I know we're gonna get into it, but one of the things that I'm building right now is is an email course because it's that initial journey is where people really stumble upon, like, you get those talked about the beliefs, right? That, like, Hey, I can't sell too early, right, but then they stress out every quarter because they have this big launch that they want to do that list. Well, if you're launching every day, that big launch, you don't have to worry about right? Like, I too, was at fault of this, right? I fell victim to it. But once I put this initial pitch in place, and it makes sense for them to get the pitch, it's as good as, hey, here's my podcast, season eight, or here's my latest blog post on the right. Just because it's paid doesn't mean it's any less valuable or more valuable to them. It's just packaged differently, and let them decide whether or not it's it fits for them. Right. So that's, that, for me was a big eye opening change. Because I mean, even if you don't have a product, you can pitch in an affiliate product, right, a small sequence around that. I did that for a long time. Because well, I you know, I know my ideal client for...