Jonah Goldberg, co-founder and Editor-in-Chief of The Dispatch, discusses the dangers of a potential second Trump term. He delves into Trump's tariffs and foreign policy, revealing how they serve as tools for political leverage. The conversation highlights the unsettling influence of fringe thinkers on major tech players and critiques the rise of anti-Semitism on the Right. Goldberg also addresses the moral decline in America’s global standing and the troubling acceptance of unaccountability in politics, emphasizing the risks of loyalty over principle.
The diminished constraints on Trump's governance from traditional Republicans forecast an alarming shift towards increased authoritarianism in his potential second term.
Supporters of Trump often normalize his controversial behaviors, illustrating a disconnect between his actions and the expectations of accountability in political leadership.
The rise of nationalism and populism threatens core democratic values, pushing traditional conservatism to navigate the challenges of a culture that favors celebrity over substantive integrity.
Deep dives
The Limits of Trump's First Term
Trump's first term is viewed through a lens of nostalgia by some supporters, who focus on perceived economic successes while downplaying the chaos and authoritarian tendencies. Critics argue that many assumptions about a repeat performance in a second term overlook the dangers posed by Trump's full-fledged loyalty to loyalists who enable him without question. The constraints that existed during his first term, imposed by more traditional Republicans, have significantly diminished, suggesting a worrying shift towards increasing authoritarianism. This creates a political landscape where caution and guardrails that once tempered Trump’s impulses have essentially vanished, leading to a potential governance crisis.
Understanding the Trump Supporter
Supporters of Trump often demonstrate a willful ignorance of issues like January 6 and presidential corruption, seizing on their discontent with Democratic policies as justification for their loyalty. There is a distinct tendency to normalize Trump's approach to governance, distancing themselves from the accountability typically expected of past presidents. Many supporters consider him a 'normal' president, focusing instead on his policies that resonate with them while dismissing his more troubling behaviors as inconsequential. As a result, polling indicates a disconnect between Trump's actions and mainstream acceptance, suggesting a potential undercurrent of dissent among moderates who might not openly criticize him.
The Rise of Nationalism and Its Implications
The resurgence of nationalism, as championed by Trump, poses distinct risks as it lacks a clear limiting principle, leading to potential aggressive foreign policy maneuvers. Trump's admiration for strong leaders in countries like Russia and China shapes a worldview where strength is prioritized over diplomacy or international cooperation. This mindset raises concerns about the possibility of the United States engaging in expansionist activities that echo historical imperialism. The embrace of nationalism by prominent leaders can threaten core democratic values and international alliances, casting a shadow over the future of U.S. foreign policy.
Media Dynamics and Audience Capture
Today's political media landscape rewards partisanship and audience loyalty, significantly impacting the discourse within conservative circles. The fear of losing audience approval constrains many within the media, leading to an environment where critics of Trump struggle to gain traction. This audience capture results in a lack of principled opposition to extreme behaviors, as media figures prioritize viewer engagement over truthfulness. The ongoing polarization creates an echo chamber, stifling honest discussions about Trump's actions and their implications for democratic institutions.
The Challenges to Conservatism
The current climate poses challenges to traditional conservatism as it grapples with the implications of rising populism and nationalism. The need for integrity, truthfulness, and institutional loyalty is overshadowed by a culture of celebrity and superficiality that prioritizes fame over substance. As Trump's brand of conservatism gains prominence, ideologically grounded principles increasingly become sidelined, leading to the erosion of foundational conservative values. The danger lies not just in the dominance of populist rhetoric but also in the willingness to sacrifice well-established norms and values in favor of short-term gains or emotional appeals.
The Path Forward for Conservatism
For traditional conservatives, re-establishing credibility and influence amidst rising populist fervor requires a commitment to truth and principled governance. There needs to be a reorientation towards appealing to moderate voters and emphasizing the importance of institutions that work effectively. The future of conservatism hinges on fostering a political culture that prioritizes honesty, accountability, and respect for democratic norms, while actively resisting authoritarian impulses. A return to core values and principles can help create a more united and stable political future that transcends the divisive rhetoric of the current political landscape.
Sam Harris speaks with Jonah Goldberg about the damage Trump is doing domestically and abroad. They discuss Trump’s tariffs, Curtis Yarvin and the Tech Right, threats against Republicans who criticize Trump, why the arguments Republicans are using to defend Trump’s position on Ukraine are flawed, America’s deteriorating moral standing on the global stage, the recklessness of DOGE, why so many CEOs bent the knee to Trump, antisemitism on the Right, Trump’s plan for Gaza, worst case scenarios for Trump 2.0, and other topics.
Jonah Goldberg is the co-founder and Editor-in-Chief of The Dispatch. A Senior Fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, Goldberg is also an LA Times columnist, CNN contributor, and three-time bestselling author.
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