#129 Punished by Reward with Michael Ellis

In this episode of K9’s Talking Scents, Cameron Ford sits down with world-renowned trainer Michael Ellis for one of the most in-depth conversations ever recorded on reinforcement theory, over-arousal, odor commitment, reward schedules, and why many detection dog programs unintentionally create false alerts.Together they break down the problems behind “reward-rich” training systems, how reinforcement can become punishing, why omission matters, and how to build dogs who persist, stay committed to odor, and search with accuracy — even in operational environments where rewards rarely come.This episode covers:• Why dogs become toy-obsessed instead of odor-committed• How handlers accidentally create false alerts• Why “continuous reinforcement” destroys operational reliability• Rewarding search vs rewarding finds• The science of frustration, dopamine, and over-performance• The difference between learning behavior and maintaining behavior• Why real-world deployments MUST be represented during training• How to introduce blanks, variable schedules, and expectation violation• "Satan’s Infinite Loop" and how trainers build bad habits into dogs• Why many dogs don’t indicate because they want the search to continue• How to build persistent, reliable, stable detection dogsIf you’re a detection dog handler, trainer, supervisor, or K9 program manager, this is a masterclass.CHAPTERS00:00 — Intro & catching up01:00 — Online education & training libraries02:00 — Are rewards harming performance?05:00 — Reinforcement vs intrinsic motivation07:00 — Over-arousal in detection dogs08:30 — Searching for toys vs searching for odor10:00 — False alerts & frustration12:00 — The “cheat code” problem14:30 — Reward-rich environments vs real deployments17:00 — Continuous vs variable reinforcement19:00 — Training that mirrors real-world operations21:30 — Expectation violation & handler discomfort23:00 — Why easy training creates weak dogs26:00 — Dogs that quit vs dogs that persist28:00 — Reducing rewards without breaking the dog30:30 — Reading search behavior correctly32:00 — Consistency in training fundamentals35:00 — Foundation errors that create future problems38:00 — When to introduce blanks41:00 — Reinforcing end-of-search behaviors44:00 — Fixing continuously rewarded dogs47:00 — Why dogs miss the first odor49:00 — Over-arousal & compensation behaviors52:00 — Indication obsession & unintended consequences54:00 — Odor recognition vs sit/down behavior57:00 — Natural indications & reading the dog59:00 — Satan’s Infinite Loop explained________________________________________🧠 TRAIN WITH FORD K9 — ONLINE & IN PERSONLevel up your detection dog training with Ford K9’s full education ecosystem:🔥 ONLINE COURSES & LECTURESOdor Pays System, Air Movement, Cognition, Problem Solving & more👉 https://FordK9.com🔥 FORD K9 MEMBERSHIP (BEST VALUE)Members-only seminars, monthly lessons, exclusive Q&As, full video library👉 https://FordK9.com/memberships🔥 IN-PERSON CLASSES — SANTA ROSA, CADetection Handler SchoolDetection Dog Training ClassOdor Pays Workshops👉 Sign up at: https://FordK9.com🛡️ STRATOS K9 — EVENT & VENUE DETECTION TEAMSPremier Explosive Detection & Firearm Detection Dog teams for:• Large-scale events• Conferences & expos• Concerts & festivals• Corporate security & dignitary operationsOur dogs are specialists, not generalists — one mission, one discipline, no cross-training.👉 Learn more: https://StratosK9.com📩 For event inquiries: info@stratosk9.com🐕 CONNECT WITH US ON SOCIALSStratos K9Instagram: https://instagram.com/stratosk9LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/company/stratosk9Ford K9Instagram: https://instagram.com/fordk9detectionFacebook: https://facebook.com/FordK9Detection