My guest today is the creator of the global bestseller and smash hit TV adaptation, The Discovery of Witches, Deborah Harkness. Now, I’m not sure if you know this about me, but I’m a bit obsessed with all things witchy, and I’ve been a devotee ever since the proof of the first book landed on my desk and I tumbled headlong into the world of Diana Bishop. Can you say, ob-sessed?

But before all this Deborah was a scholar. A historian who teaches the history of science at the University of Southern California, she is an authority on alchemical manuscripts and for her doctorate researched the history of magic and science in Europe between 1500 and 1700. Sound familiar?

There’s more, just a couple of years ago Deborah discovered she was descended from not one, but two of the Salem women.

Deborah joined me to talk about the latest book in the All Souls series - The Black Bird Oracle - which takes us to Salem and the descendants of the witch trials. We discussed also her life changing cancer diagnosis, why women’s pain is endlessly ignored, why she won’t be blunting her sharp pointy edges for anyone and why she loves being the crone of dark academia.

* You can buy all the books mentioned in this podcast at The Shift bookshop on Bookshop.org, including The Blackbird Oracle by Deborah Harkness and the book that inspired this podcast, The Shift: how I lost and found myself after 40 - and you can too, by me.

* If you enjoyed this episode and you fancy buying me a coffee, pop over to my page on buymeacoffee.com.

• And if you'd like to support the work that goes into making this podcast and get a weekly newsletter plus loads more content including exclusive transcripts of the podcast, why not join The Shift community, come and have a look around at www.theshiftwithsambaker.substack.com

• The Shift (on life after 40) with Sam Baker is created and hosted by Sam Baker and edited by Juliette Nicholls @ Pineapple Audio Production. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate/review/follow as it really does help other people find us. And let me know what you think on twitter @sambaker or instagram @theothersambaker.

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TLE 165 - The Non-Sand Grout Podcast of America