Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Edward J. Larson discusses the founding of America, the attitudes of the Founding Fathers towards slavery, and the justification of slavery. They also delve into the U.S. Constitution, the Thirteenth, Fourteenth, and Fifteenth Amendments, the Atlantic slave trade, and the push for abolition. The conversation explores the Three-fifths Compromise, the Dread Scott Decision, Abraham Lincoln's reasoning for ending slavery, and the future of race relations in America.
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Quick takeaways
The Revolutionary War saw Americans fighting for their freedom while simultaneously denying it to enslaved people.
Scientific views on race influenced the debates over slavery, with some arguing for the unity of the human species and others pushing the notion of Africans being a separate and lesser race.
The abolitionist movement employed both religious and rational arguments, with the Quakers advocating for abolition based on radical equality and others emphasizing the principles of liberty and freedom post-Revolutionary War.
Deep dives
The Revolutionary Period and Slavery
During the Revolutionary War, Americans fought for their liberty and freedom, but at the same time, slavery was entrenched in the colonies. Some supporters of slavery, like David Hume, argued that Africans were a separate and inferior race, while abolitionists like James Otis made rational arguments against slavery based on natural rights. The Quakers, who were early advocates for abolition, struggled to convince their fellow Christians, as they were seen as a peculiar cult. The debates over slavery were rife with contradictions, as Americans fought for their own liberty while simultaneously denying it to enslaved people.
Scientific Debates and the Justification of Slavery
During the Revolutionary period, scientific views on race played a role in the debates over slavery. David Hume's arguments of Africans being naturally inferior influenced some American supporters of slavery. The question of whether different races were different species or simply a subrace was hotly debated. While some like Benjamin Franklin and abolitionist David Rittenhouse argued for the unity of the human species, figures like Thomas Jefferson pushed for the idea that Africans were a separate and lesser race. These arguments were rationalized and used to justify the perpetuation of slavery.
Religion, Rationalism, and Abolition
Religious and rational arguments were both present in the abolitionist movement. The Quakers, driven by their belief in radical equality, were early advocates for abolition. However, their arguments based on the Bible were not widely accepted by their fellow Christians, particularly as the revolutionary period saw a decline in religious fervor. Rational arguments against slavery gained traction, particularly after the Revolutionary War, when principles of liberty and freedom were more widely discussed. The tide of public opinion began to turn against slavery, leading to the first abolition laws in states like Massachusetts and Pennsylvania.
The Influence of the Revolutionary Period on Slavery
The Revolutionary period was a time of dynamic change and debate regarding slavery. While some American colonies began to abolish slavery, particularly in the North, the Southern states doubled down on slavery, viewing it as intertwined with their white liberty. The contradiction between fighting for liberty and owning slaves was brought to the forefront during this time. Debates over the nature of race, scientific justifications for slavery, and religious and rational arguments for abolition all shaped the trajectory of slavery in America.
The Power of Slavery as a Metaphor
The podcast discusses how the American Revolutionaries used the metaphor of slavery to mobilize the people against British oppression. They drew on the visible and brutal reality of chattel slavery in the colonies to make their point about the oppressive nature of British rule, even though many of these revolutionaries themselves owned enslaved people.
The Compromises of the Constitution
The podcast highlights how the compromises made during the Constitutional Convention were heavily influenced by the divisive issue of slavery. The framers had to delicately balance the interests of the Northern states, which were moving towards abolition, and the Southern states, which were doubling down on slavery. This led to compromises like the three-fifths clause and the Electoral College, which protected slavery in the South and shaped the Constitution.
New attention from historians and journalists is raising pointed questions about the founding period: was the American revolution waged to preserve slavery, and was the Constitution a pact with slavery or a landmark in the antislavery movement? We have long needed a history of the founding that fully includes Black Americans in the Revolutionary protests, the war, and the debates over slavery and freedom that followed. We now have that history in Pulitzer Prize–winning historian Edward J. Larson’s insightful synthesis of the founding. Throughout Larson’s brilliant history, it is the voices of Black Americans that prove the most convincing of all on the urgency of liberty.
Shermer and Larson discuss: Was America founded in 1619 or 1776? • What is/was an “American”? • Founding Fathers attitudes toward slavery • What was the justification of slavery? • constitutional convention and slavery compromises • U.S. Constitution and slavery • Thirteenth, Fourteenth, and Fifteenth Amendments • Atlantic slave trade • Fugitive Slave Act and Clause • Native Americans • monogenism vs. polygenism • slavery abolition • Quakers push for abolition • Three-fifths Compromise • The Dread Scott Decision and the Civil War • Abraham Lincoln and his rational argument for ending slavery • the future of race relations in America.
Edward J. Larson is the author of many acclaimed works in American history, including the Pulitzer Prize–winning history of the Scopes Trial, Summer for the Gods. He also authored Franklin and Washington: The Founding Partnership, The Return of George Washington 1783-1789, A Magnificent Catastrophe: The Tumultuous Election of 1800—America’s First Presidential Campaign, An Empire of Ice: Scott, Shackleton, and the Heroic Age of Antarctic Science, To the Edges of the Earth: 1909, the Race for the Three Poles, and the Climax of the Age of Exploration, and the textbook Evolution: The Remarkable History of a Scientific Theory. He is University Professor of History and Hugh and Hazel Darling Chair in Law at Pepperdine University.
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