Making Enemy: Telling WWII from the German's Perspective - Darryl Cooper | #64
Mar 14, 2025
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Darryl Cooper, host of the Martyr Made Podcast, dives into his new series examining WWII from the German perspective. He discusses the challenges of presenting this complex history and the moral ambiguities faced by ordinary Germans during the conflict. Cooper highlights how WWII narratives shape current global politics and encourages a nuanced understanding of past atrocities. He emphasizes the significance of empathy in historical storytelling while confronting the consequences of oversimplified narratives surrounding this pivotal period.
Darryl Cooper's series 'Enemy' aims to present World War II from the perspective of ordinary Germans to foster empathy and understanding.
The podcast emphasizes the danger of prevailing narratives that simplify historical complexities, risking a distorted understanding of humanity.
The conversation highlights the profound impact societal myths have on contemporary identity and political responses to crises.
Darryl discusses the moral challenges of examining historical figures as humans rather than mere villains, urging a deeper understanding of motivations.
The exploration of eugenics serves as a cautionary tale about the dangers of ideologies that narrowly define human worth through misguided rationality.
Deep dives
The Necessity of Myths in Society
Myths are vital to society, functioning as foundational narratives that help people understand their identity and history. There's an underlying belief that narratives shape how societies perceive events, such as the concept that Germans were once a cultured nation before becoming monstrous during the Nazi regime. While people may reject the idea of simplifying an entire group to mere villains, these narratives still permeate societal consciousness. In this context, the podcast emphasizes the importance of re-evaluating these myths to gain a deeper understanding of both history and humanity.
The Perspective of Ordinary Germans in World War II
The podcast explores the series titled 'Enemy' that seeks to present World War II from the perspective of ordinary Germans. By asking how these individuals perceived the war's events, the series aims to empathize with the human experience within that historical context. The host, Daryl Cooper, emphasizes that while this narrative does not excuse Nazi actions, it reveals the complexities of human motivations and societal pressures at the time. This approach challenges the conventional narratives that often portray Germans primarily as perpetrators without exploring their lived experiences.
Propaganda and Its Lasting Impact
Wars often generate intense propaganda that shapes public perception of the enemy, leading to lasting effects even after the conflict ends. The host discusses the ingrained narratives that demonize adversaries, creating taboos that inhibit objective discussions about historical events. Such propaganda not only justifies war actions but also solidifies narratives that can suppress alternative viewpoints and discussions about accountability. The resulting consensus history can create barriers to understanding the nuanced realities faced by individuals on all sides during wartime.
Revisiting Historical Narratives
The podcast underscores the complexity of heritage and historical narratives, noting how many conflicts throughout history are only understood through specific lenses. The tendency of societies to engage in self-reflection about past injustices is prominent in many historical contexts, except for World War II. By not critically examining the narratives crafted around this conflict, societies risk upholding myths that may not reflect the more complicated truths of history. This recollection and re-evaluation of events call for greater understanding while acknowledging the necessity of challenging established narratives.
The Burden of Demonic Narratives
The discussion highlights how societal narratives can morph into powerful burdens that influence how communities perceive themselves and others. For many, the prevailing narratives around World War II and its aftermath serve as a significant myth that defines modern identity. This elevation of the World War II narrative often results in a cultural condemnation of Germany and its people, which can stifle meaningful dialogue. The implications of such narratives can lead to an ethical dilemma: understanding humanity can be seen as diminishing the memories of the atrocities committed.
Challenges of Historical Empathy
The podcast tackles the difficulties associated with fostering empathy for historical figures perceived as villains. While the host aims to understand the pressures that shaped the actions of Nazi officials and ordinary Germans, it also urges audiences to confront the discomfort of this exploration. The recognition that individuals, regardless of their actions, are still fundamentally human can challenge listeners’ preconceptions and moral standpoints. Through this lens, it calls for a comprehensive understanding of the human condition instead of simply categorizing them as monsters.
The Role of World War II in Shaping Modern Values
The discussion makes connections between the narratives established after World War II and the current political climate in the West. It suggests that the values regime arising from these narratives has profoundly affected how contemporary societies respond to current crises and conflicts. The reliance on the idea of fighting 'the next Hitler' to justify military interventions may lead to historical oversimplifications that perpetuate cycles of violence. This reflection poses vital questions about how historical misconceptions can continue to affect present-day geopolitics.
Historical Context of Eugenics
The conversation delves into the historical context surrounding the rise of eugenics, highlighting its adoption in the early 20th century as a misguided attempt to apply scientific rationality to societal issues. During this time, people were led to believe in the potential for societal improvement through selective breeding, a perspective that gained traction amid perceptions of progress through science. By examining the societal belief in eugenics, the podcast reveals the dangers of trusting ideologies that aim to apply a narrow definition of human worth based on arbitrary standards. This historical exploration serves as a cautionary reminder of the moral implications of scientific and technological advancements.
The Evolution of Societal Myths
As societies evolve, their foundational myths also transform, reflecting changing beliefs and circumstances. The host points out that contemporary European societies have increasingly adopted a globalist perspective, often at the expense of traditional national narratives. This shift has created a disconnection from historical contexts, making it challenging to engage with historical narratives in a meaningful way. By transitioning from a deep-rooted understanding of one’s identity shaped by past conflicts to a sanitized global narrative, communities risk losing touch with their unique histories.
Today, Santiago & Josh interview Darryl Cooper, host of Martyr Made Podcast, about Enemy, his new series telling the story of WWII from the German’s perspective.
We cover a lot of meta-questions: his research methodology, sources, approach, and overall objectives.
(1:01) Introduction to the WWII series
(1:58) Why WWII remains untouchable
(10:50) Putting the audience in the shoes of ordinary participants
(19:53) WWII as the load-bearing myth of the modern world order
(33:45) The challenges of approaching this historical period
(51:07) What happens if WWII no longer shapes global politics?
(55:05) Why Enemy is not an apologia for Nazi Germany
(59:50) The brutal realities of the Eastern Front and the war’s moral ambiguities
(1:03:21) Darryl’s research process
(1:17:46) WWII as a secular myth: continuing the fight
(1:33:03) What happens after winning against woke ideology?
(1:48:19) Making the past real
(2:03:30) How WWII rationalizes unprecedented violence
(2:19:40) What replaces the WWII myth?
(2:22:44) Myth, identity, and political power
