In this episode of the Unseen Leadership podcast, Chandler Vannoy and Mike Kelsey are joined by Rich Villodas who is the author of The Deeply Formed Life and lead pastor at New Life Fellowship in New York City. During their conversation, they discuss the integration between soul and role, the balance of reading and experience, and our ability to grow in self-differentiation. QUOTES FROM EPISODE 58: "Leadership must be this integration between soul and role.""Don't aspire to a role that your soul is not ready for.""Just filling the position because it needs to be filled can lead to a lot of heartache.""I must recognize certain conversations require particular spaces in order to shepherd people well.""Find yourself among people for enough time and you will come across lots of things to help you in your experience - conflicts, disagreements, criticism.""I am trying to become aware of the way these misconceptions shape the way I see myself and shape the way I lead others.""Self-differentiation at its core is about remaining close to myself and remaining close to others, especially in times of high anxiety, and resisting the polar opposite pull of either cutting people off or finding ourselves enmeshed in them.""How do I lead people that disagree with me? By first tending to what is happening inside of me.""We need to hold these things together if we are going to be faithful in the particular generational social and cultural moment we find ourselves in.""We have often been discipled into superficiality." RESOURCES MENTIONED The Deeply Formed Life by Rich Villodas Generation to Generation by Edwin Friedman A Failure of Nerve by Edwin Friedman The Pastor as a Minor Poet by Craig Barnes