Joscha Bach, a German cognitive scientist and philosopher, delves into the intricate relationship between consciousness and artificial general intelligence (AGI). He discusses his unique upbringing in East Germany, early programming experiences, and the evolution of AI. The conversation explores the ethics of brain interventions, the future of consciousness research, and cultural perspectives on suffering. Bach also addresses the simulation hypothesis and the potential for AGI to enhance human creativity, posing profound questions about identity and self-awareness.
Joscha Bach emphasizes the intricate relationship between consciousness and artificial intelligence, raising questions about the nature of simulated versus genuine awareness.
Bach's unconventional upbringing in the woods shaped his self-education and unique perspectives, influencing his later contributions to cognitive science and AI.
The podcast highlights the urgent need for established frameworks addressing ethical concerns in consciousness research and AGI development amid technological advancements.
Deep dives
Understanding Consciousness
The discussion revolves around the complexity of defining and distinguishing between real and simulated consciousness. The uncertainty regarding whether all consciousness might ultimately be a construct is emphasized, creating a foundation for exploring consciousness from both philosophical and scientific perspectives. The notion that distinguishing between these two forms of consciousness is complicated suggests that both may exist within a virtual framework, which raises questions about the nature of experience itself. This serves as a backdrop for discussing the goals and implications of future AGI development and its potential consciousness.
Yosha Bach's Unique Upbringing
Yosha Bach reflects on his unconventional childhood, living in a self-constructed society in the woods due to his father's disdain for traditional social structures. This isolation fostered an early interest in reading and self-education, leading him to develop unique perspectives that diverged significantly from his peers when he eventually entered the formal education system in Eastern Germany. His exposure to a predominantly Marxist atmosphere contrasted sharply with his extensive self-taught knowledge, creating a sense of detachment and arrogance towards the education he received. This experience shaped his understanding of the world and how individuals interact with their environment, setting the stage for his later explorations in cognitive science and AI.
Transitioning to Academia
Bach's transition into academia was driven by a desire to understand the workings of the mind, leading him to computer science as a closely aligned discipline. His early fascination with computing began with home computers, where he learned to write programs out of necessity, informing his cognitive approach to reality and problem-solving. Within academia, he found a supportive environment in computer science that allowed for critical discourse, contrasting sharply with his experiences in philosophy, which often felt socially constrained. His educational journey included rich interactions with influential figures, particularly in Berlin’s cognitive sciences landscape, shaping his intellectual path.
Views on Future AI and Consciousness
The conversation addresses the evolving timeline for achieving AGI, with Bach expressing a steadfast belief that advancements in AI will be fundamental to addressing complex societal challenges. He remains optimistic about humanity's potential partnership with AGI, perceiving threats that arise from the technology as surmountable through further AI innovations. Moreover, he grapples with the distinctions between simulated and genuine consciousness, pondering if a sophisticated AGI could experience awareness akin to human consciousness. Bach posits that understanding consciousness itself is not only crucial for developing AGI but also for aligning the moral and ethical frameworks surrounding such intelligent systems.
The Future of Consciousness Research
Bach discusses the need for a dedicated, non-commercial institution focused on the study of consciousness, highlighting the ethical and philosophical significance of the topic. He suggests that many companies, while operationally driven, lack the cultural and philosophical willingness to delve deeply into consciousness research amidst concerns over implications for AI. This initiative aims to bridge gaps in understanding how potentially conscious systems could arise and what that means for ethics and society at large. Ultimately, Bach sees this pursuit as an essential aspect of modern technological evolution, urging for a more profound collective inquiry into consciousness as we advance toward integrating AI into society.
Joscha Bach is a German cognitive scientist, AI researcher, and philosopher known for his work on cognitive architectures, artificial intelligence, mental representation, emotion, social modeling, multi-agent systems, and the philosophy of mind.
(01:26) - Growing up in the forest in East Germany
(06:23) - Academia: early neural net pioneers, CS and Philosophy
(10:17) - The fall of the Berlin Wall
(14:57) - Commodore 64 and early programming experiences
(15:29) - AGI timeline and predictions
(19:35) - Scaling hypothesis, beyond Transformers, universality of information structures and world models
(25:29) - Consciousness
(41:11) - The ethics of brain interventions, zombies, and the Turing test
(43:43) - LLMs and simulated phenomenology
(46:34) - The future of consciousness research
(48:44) - Cultural perspectives on suffering
(52:19) - AGI and humanity's future
(58:18) - Simulation hypothesis
(01:03:33) - Liquid AI: Innovations and goals
(01:16:02) - Philosophy of Identity: the Transporter Problem, Is there anything beyond memory records?
Music used with permission from Blade Runner Blues Livestream improvisation by State Azure.
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Steve Hsu is Professor of Theoretical Physics and of Computational Mathematics, Science, and Engineering at Michigan State University. Previously, he was Senior Vice President for Research and Innovation at MSU and Director of the Institute of Theoretical Science at the University of Oregon. Hsu is a startup founder (SuperFocus.ai, SafeWeb, Genomic Prediction, Othram) and advisor to venture capital and other investment firms. He was educated at Caltech and Berkeley, was a Harvard Junior Fellow, and has held faculty positions at Yale, the University of Oregon, and MSU. Please send any questions or suggestions to manifold1podcast@gmail.com or Steve on X @hsu_steve.
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