My guests today are Jo Piazza and Christine Pride. Jo is a bestselling journalist and author, Christine is her esteemed editor and a publishing veteran. Working together, the pair became friends and now they’ve written a novel together.

We are Not Like Them is the story of a lifelong friendship between a Black woman named Riley and a white woman named Jen. When an event throws their friendship into turmoil, they have to do a lot of racial reckoning and coming to terms with the blind spots that they - and many of us – have around race. At How To Be Sad we are all about learning to handle sadness, better, learning to tolerate discomfort and get better at difficult conversations. And We Are Not Like Them is a masterclass in difficult conversations – not only for its characters Jen and Riley, but for its authors. Here, we talk about:

-       Why it’s hard to talk about race

-       Interracial friendships

-       Cancel culture

-       Having difficult conversations (more than once)

-       The mental load of ‘double-consciousness’

-       Exceptionalism

-       Formative female friendships

-       Infertility

Follow Christine Pride @cpride on Instagram and Jo Piazza @jopiazzaauthor (Instagram) or @jopiazza (Twitter). Their thought-provoking, compelling, page-turner We Are Not Like Them is out now.

Follow Helen @MsHelenRussell and How To Be Sad, the book, is out now in the North America and out in paperback in the UK.

Thanks to Joel Grove for production and Matt Clacher at HarperCollins. If you like the show please tell your friends, rate and review to help us attract more great guests!