Climate activists Jess Serrante and Joanna Macy are 60 years apart. They’re also close friends who’ve been sharing stories and commiserating about the state of the world for the past 10 years. When Jess experienced a crisis and started questioning whether her activism was really effective, Joanna provided a framework that changed everything.

In this episode, Anna talks to Jess about what she’s learned from Joanna about aging, activism, and managing the emotional ups and downs of caring about the world.

You can listen to Jess and Joanna’s podcast, We Are the Great Turning, here or wherever you listen to podcasts. Artist Autumn Leiker is mentioned in the episode, and you can learn more about her work here.

Podcast production by Cameron Drews.

Death, Sex & Money is now produced by Slate! To support us and our colleagues, please sign up for our membership program, Slate Plus! Members get ad-free podcasts, bonus content on lots of Slate shows, and full access to all the articles on Slate.com. Sign up today at slate.com/dsmplus.

And if you’re new to the show, welcome. We’re so glad you’re here. Find us and follow us on Instagram and you can find Anna’s newsletter at annasale.substack.com. Our new email address, where you can reach us with voice memos, pep talks, questions, critiques, is deathsexmoney@slate.com.

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