Yascha Mounk and George Packer discuss autocracy in literature and real life.

George Packer is an award-winning author and staff writer at The Atlantic. His latest book is The Emergency.

In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and George Packer discuss authoritarianism in fiction, living humanist virtues in morally complex times, and how the Democrats can defeat Donald Trump.

Note: This conversation was recorded on October 21, 2025.

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