Yascha Mounk and Freddie deBoer discuss whether the sweeping set of progressive ideas that came into force in 2020 has really begun to recede.

Freddie deBoer is a writer, academic, and critic. He writes the Freddie deBoer Substack, and is the author of books including the Cult of Smart: How Our Broken Education System Perpetuates Social Injustice and, most recently, How Elites Ate the Social Justice Movement.

In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Freddie deBoer discuss whether "woke" ideas have, rather than receding, become institutionalized; how the movement for black lives was co-opted for elite liberal ends; and why a genuinely anti-racist, anti-poverty movement needs material objectives.

This transcript has been condensed and lightly edited for clarity .

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Podcast production by Jack Shields, and Brendan Ruberry

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