Spill The Ink How to run a better law firm business
Running a business is hard. Now try being a lawyer on top of it all.
Having spent 20 years helping law firm owners and senior partners implement strategies that turn their firms into thriving businesses, Gary Mitchell has a treasure trove of knowledge and advice to share about the subject. He and host Michelle Calcote King discuss the many facets of running an effective law firm business, including best practices for efficient management and streamlining operations, leadership excellence, succession planning, and employee engagement and retention.
Here's a glimpse of what you'll learn-
Who is Gary Mitchell
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About OnTrac Coach and its coaching programs
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Advice for managing partners on how to amplify their impact
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Why standardized processes and systems are crucial to law firm growth, scaling and profitability
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Common challenges law firms face with employee engagement and how to overcome them
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When is the best time to think about succession planning
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How to successfully transition lateral hires (and mistakes to avoid)
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Common onboarding mistakes that can decrease legal talent retention
Gary is a highly regarded author, business coach and consultant specializing in professional service firms and small businesses. With over 18 years of experience, he helps his clients unlock their full potential and achieve personal, financial and professional freedom.
Gary's approach leads his clients to unparalleled success in growth and profitability using proven strategies that encompass business development, HR, leadership, management, marketing, processes, systems, and time and organizational management. He continues to contribute to several business publications and journals and is frequently called upon to guest appear on business podcasts. Gary hosts his own podcast, "The LawBiz™." He can be reached at gary@ontraccoach.com
Resources mentioned in this episode-
Check out OnTrac Coach
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Connect with Gary Mitchell on LinkedIn
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Listen to Michelle answer questions about PR for law firms on The LawBiz™ Podcast
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Gary's book recommendation: "Atomic Habits: An Easy & Proven Way to Build Good Habits & Break Bad Ones"
This episode is brought to you by Reputation Ink.
Founded by Michelle Calcote King, Reputation Ink is a public relations and content marketing agency that serves professional services firms of all shapes and sizes across the United States, including corporate law firms and architecture, engineering and construction (AEC) firms.
Reputation Ink understands how sophisticated corporate buyers find and select professional services firms. For more than a decade, they have helped firms grow through thought leadership-fueled strategies, including public relations, content marketing, video marketing, social media, podcasting, marketing strategy services and more.
To learn more, visit www.rep-ink.com or email them at info@rep-ink.com today.
Transcript[00:00:00] Gary Mitchell: If growth is important, if profitability is important and you do nothing else, do this well.
[00:00:07] Announcer: Welcome to "Spill the Ink," a podcast by Reputation Ink, where we feature experts in growth and brand visibility for law firms and architecture, engineering and construction firms. Now let's get started with the show.
[00:00:24] Michelle Calcote King: Hey everyone, I'm Michelle Calcote King. I'm your host and I'm also the principal and president of Reputation Ink. We're a public relations and content marketing agency for law firms and other professional services firms. To learn more, go to rep-ink.com.
As we all know, running a business isn't easy, much less when you do it alone. And with so many plates to juggle, managing a law firm can leave many law firm leaders stretched very thin. And the industry is evolving so quickly that many law firms find themselves falling behind even as they're working to catch up. So we're going to talk to the perfect person to discuss this topic.
His name is Gary Mitchell. He's an author, business coach and consultant specializing in professional services firms. Gary Mitchell. And he also hosts "The LawBiz Podcast," which I've been very lucky to be a guest on. Gary offers several coaching programs for law firms through his business, OnTrac Coach. We're excited to pick his brain today. So welcome, Gary.
[00:01:18] Gary Mitchell: Thank you, Michelle. It's great to do this reciprocally.
[00:01:20] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah it's fun. I'm excited about this.
Well, let's start with telling me a little bit about what you do at OnTrac Coach and your background.
[00:01:27] Gary Mitchell: Michelle, well, it's interesting how I got started with coaching lawyers — initially lawyers. I've always kind of been predicated to a career helping people. I found myself being a campaign manager for a lawyer. I had a lot of political experience and background, and I got a call one day and this lawyer candidate needed some help. And so I went and met with him and he was green. I mean, a coach's dream, really, because blank canvas and he was very eager to learn. And so I ran his nomination. He won the nomination, which in the U. S. is kind of like a primary, right? To get to be the candidate. This is on a federal level. So I became his campaign manager reluctantly for the federal campaign. And I swear I had the greatest 'Aha' moment of my life. Instead of being the person, now I was the person behind the person. And to watch him grow and evolve and become an amazing candidate partly due to what I gave him was like, "Wow!"
And during that experience, one of his friends came up to me after a campaign meeting and — a former lawyer — and said, "Gary, I've seen what you've done. You have this ability to help highly intellectual people with skills they're not accustomed to. You should look at the legal industry."
And after I picked my job off the floor, I began about nine months of research. I'm in Vancouver. There wasn't anything going on here. So I looked at what was going on in the U. S. and business coaching was already a fact of life back in 2006. Not so much in Canada. But then serendipity came in and the first chapter of the Legal Marketing Association outside of the United States was formed right here in Vancouver.
[00:03:10] Michelle Calcote King: Oh, very cool.
[00:03:11] Gary Mitchell: Yeah, it was. I mean, it just fell into place. I'm in the midst of my research. I went and met a number of people who I'm still in touch with. In fact, many colleagues, and then I got on the board and then a couple of months later, my first article written for a legal publication. And we spoke about this when you guested on my podcast. My first article was about media relations and lawyers. So it all just came into place. So then I started coaching lawyers and I haven't looked back.
What I do at OnTrac in a nutshell, I help my clients get more freedom. More freedom in their career with fulfillment and control, more financial freedom, more life freedom. And I do this through helping them with BD, HR, leadership, marketing, and growth and profitability. That's in a nutshell what I do.
[00:03:59] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, that's great. I know a small business owner myself, and I know law firms have very unique challenges they face.
On your website under your managing partner growth program, you mentioned small yet strategic and targeted improvements. Can you walk me through what that means and give me examples of that?
[00:04:19] Gary Mitchell: Well, first of all, what I do in the Managing Partner Growth Program is it's really focused on the managing partner. His or her role, and what impact they can have within the whole firm. So I start out with a SWOT analysis with them, not the firm. With them individually. So we look at strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, and threats. And I've been around long enough to remember when the old school of thoughts around SWOT was, you know, you pick up your socks with your weaknesses, you improve them.
And then along came a gentleman by the name of Steve Jobs and turned that theory upside down. His philosophy was forget about your weaknesses, focus on your strengths, become a master and build a team around you that fill in the holes left by your weaknesses. This has been a very successful approach.
So I help law firm leaders identify what are their strengths, then help them build a team around them. Right? So that's leadership. And to fill that out, building the team is critical. And also very important is balancing their time and efforts between managing the firm and managing their own practice. In most cases, these people are still serving their own clients, not to mention growing their own practice. It's like they have two full-time jobs. So that's a big part of it.
Small improvements. My philosophy has always been, it's incredible what you can do when you make small, incremental improvements because they compound. When we think of change, and people fear change because "Oh my God, it's so much, so big." It all happens at once. Most effective change happens slowly, methodically, strategically, in small steps. And I remember having one client tell me after we worked together, and I think he posted in a testimonial, "Gary showed us how to make these incremental steps, which had a profound impact once they were compounded."
So those are on, like, leadership, team building, delegating, client management, and communication, and workflow and process. Those are some of the areas making just simple tweaks, like team communication and workflow. When there's a team of lawyers and paralegals working together, [who are] meeting regularly and during that time, it was still Zoom because we were still in the pandemic, right? But meeting, communicating regularly, where are we at with this file? What are next steps? So everybody's, you know, talking together. And it's not just law firms, it's in general business, communication can be one of the biggest challenges, and it isn't that difficult. The solutions are simple. So those are some of the things, and those all impact culture ultimately.
[00:06:56] Michelle Calcote King: I love it.
[00:06:57] Gary Mitchell: Yeah.
[00:06:57] Michelle Calcote King: Well, I'm glad you mentioned processes because I wanted to ask, what are some of those systems and processes that you see in law firms that might hold them back from growing the business?
[00:07:08] Gary Mitchell: Well, actually, that's a funny question, I think, because it's the lack of the processes that hold them back in business. So instead of focusing on negative, let me turn it around and focus on positive. It's part of my DNA. I guess maybe how I found myself to be a coach. And I'll use a client example. Two co-founders, two women co-founders of a firm, now it must be 15 years back. I worked with them just after their first year. So they're still in startup, but they made some mistakes. They got some successes. They got some wins. I helped them with some small systems and processes, and then they took what little I, and I mean little, what little advice I gave them, and they actually were guests on my podcast recently, they systemized everything, templated everything, processes everything, streamlined everything. So workflow, you know, when you're doing a task over and over again, and this has been-- they've been talking about this since I started coaching in 2006, is create templates and systems so you can plug-and-play. New employees come in, new people come in, whether they be lawyers or paralegals, and there's a system and a process, and everyone's doing the same thing. Well, lo and behold, COVID hit, and then both of them went on mat leave, and one had a very serious health scare. And because those systems and templates were in place, they not only survived through these challenging times, they've continued to thrive. And, talk about freedom, they're both parents, they're both moms, and they leave their office every day at 4:30, and they don't work weekends. That's because of the systems and processes, right?
When I'm working with clients, I ask them, "Have you ever seen the movie, The Founder?" It's the story about McDonald's. It's the story about the guy after the founders came along and put the systems and processes in place, which allowed them to grow in scale. So it's not only, yeah, I know everybody talks about growth, it's simplifying things for everyone. For the lawyers, for the paralegals, most importantly, for the clients.
[00:09:09] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah. McDonald's is that great example of how systemizing things and, you know, developing those processes can really boost a business. You go into a McDonald's anywhere and you know exactly what you're going to get.
[00:09:23] Gary Mitchell: I definitely have had pushback with lawyers over the years. "What are you comparing us to hamburgers?" No. Your product, your widget is you, the lawyers, the paralegals, your people, your talent. So yeah, okay. I'm kind of comparing you to hamburgers because that's their widget, that's their product, but I think to date they are still the most successful franchise on the planet and it's because that's what they did better than anyone else. And then everyone who came after them copied them, right? And it's making sure that everyone's on the same page, right? I don't mean creating robots. We tell people to have personality and their own styles, right? But when you're doing something over and over and over again, and people are recreating the wheel every step of the way, no one wins, especially the clients. If your clients aren't happy, if your clients aren't really over the moon with your services, you're not going to stay in business very long. You know, I get pushback, but when I use analogies, Michelle, I try to keep things where people can relate, right? Everybody knows McDonald's.
[00:10:27] Michelle Calcote King: Well, the example I often use when I get that pushback from attorneys about, you know, highly customized and things like this is sort of I think there's a book out there called "The Checklist Manifesto," and it's surgeons. So these are surgeons who stabilize their success rates, their infection rates went down, their success rates went up when they just used checklists. So yeah, no profession can't be improved with some sort of process and templates and checklists.
I noticed that you also help firms with employee engagement. Can you tell me a little bit about the issues that some law firms face around engagement?
[00:11:06] Gary Mitchell: I'm not going to call out lawyers as being the only demons in this area. It's humans. It's humans.
[00:11:12] Michelle Calcote King: Very much so. Yeah.
[00:11:13] Gary Mitchell: We all want to press the easy button. We want the one-size-fits-all, right? It's easier. No. There is no one-size-fits-all. There's two things I would say: no one-size-fits-all and no sink-or-swim. And this is where they drop the ball and all businesses drop the ball. Like, when you put a puzzle together, Michelle, not one piece is exactly the same. And yet some people will still try and force those pieces in to make the puzzle come together. That's HR, that's team building, that's organizing any group of people beyond one. Once you go beyond one, you've got to look at individual strengths.
And another thing is empowering and engaging. I'm going to give you an example. A senior partner I worked with recently was coming back to the practice after leave, and he was looking for more fulfillment in his career. And it's ironic what happened because through — I spoke about delegating earlier — through the constant, constant broken record of me on coaching calls telling him about delegating and he got it and he built a reputation within the firm as the partner to go to. The associates talk, right? He engaged them, he empowered them, he mentored them, he got them involved in the client relationships, he took them to client events. So, now the associates, instead of being, you know, in the corner at their desk, doing just the grunt work, never having any face time with clients, never having any part of the relationship, are now fully engaged. Well, how hard do you think it was for him to build his team after that?
[00:12:53] Michelle Calcote King: Right.
[00:12:53] Gary Mitchell: He was like a magnet. And that is, again, that's not rocket science. That's pretty simple. And fortunately, his firm remunerates for that. For leadership, for mentoring. And so, while his individual numbers declined, his group numbers flourished. And of course, because he's spending more time. Now what happens there, clients are getting better value because you've got a second-year, third-year or fourth-year associate doing the work that previously might have been done by a partner hoarding the time and hours. So the client's happy. You've got an associate who is learning and growing in their career and in a part of the process, so they're winning. And the leader, the partner's winning because his group is winning. So the firm is winning, right?
[00:13:42] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:13:43] Gary Mitchell: So, I mean, I just think there's a couple of simple things. Employee engagement is, I'd say, in the top five where improvements made to have astronomical positives and that's large, large or small firms. I've seen it in both.
[00:13:57] Michelle Calcote King: I can definitely understand that. And it's not a lawyer's fault. Often it's due to the nature of how firms are structured, the traditional nature of workflow within a law firm. It doesn't lend itself to collaboration very well there. So yeah, that's really important.
[00:14:13] Gary Mitchell: Part of what I do sometimes is encourage people to follow their own instincts. And his own instinct was this is where he wanted to go and I kept telling him, "That is the most successful business model." Okay, you're here — and this could be a practice group, or industry group, or the entire firm. You're here, and then you build your organization and team wide and deep, right? And so, gradually in that process, you're doing less and less of the actual legal work. You always want to be doing some of it, right? Be frontline working with clients, but less and less and focus more on the training and grooming of your people and the client management as well, making sure the clients are happy. But he had an inclination to go that way. So that helps. And as you say, most firms are not structured that way. So it's a kind of tug-of-war, right? Another challenge.
[00:15:08] Michelle Calcote King: You know, the other challenge that many law firms are facing today is succession planning, and I noticed that you help firms with that, which I can see as a critical area and something they would need help with. So when is the right time firms should be thinking about succession planning?
[00:15:25] Gary Mitchell: I'd say it's never too early to start thinking about succession planning. It should be a perpetual, constant motion. Let's use a large firm, for example. It's more bureaucratic. You've got more owners, more voices, more. But there should be a timeframe and a revolving system, in my opinion, where, you know, a managing partner is coming in for a set mandate. Because from my experience also, it's rare that a managing partner wants to stay in that position for the rest of their career.
[00:15:56] Michelle Calcote King: Right.
[00:15:57] Gary Mitchell: I've actually worked with managing partners where they transitioned back to just managing, growing their own practice after several years at the helm. Again, there is no one-size-fits-all, but consider a time limit or a term everything's flexible and the process is always moving so that when that managing partner is at the helm, they're already starting to identify and groom upcoming leaders that demonstrate the skills, demonstrate the willingness and interest in taking on leadership — not everyone does, not everyone does, right? Again we're not all the same. Firms, especially, again, they try to do everything the same for everyone. And it's like, they don't spend enough time working with the individual strengths of people, and that's how you build the most successful teams, right?
I could use all kinds of sports analogies, but there's probably a lot of people maybe listening that are not that into sports so I'll spare them. But it's like putting a sports team together, right? Not everyone is the goalie. I'm using hockey. Hockey is going on right now, but the biggest mistake is not planning at all. That's the biggest mistake.
And you know, in smaller firms, I remember one time-- Like you say, when is the right time? I would say for a smaller firm owner, when you start to be thinking about your next phase of your career whatever you want to call that. You might call it retirement. You might call it next phase. You might call it semi retirement. Again, your choice. When you start thinking about it. That's the time to start planning.
I remember having a client years ago and she approached me and we got started and she said, "Well, I have applied to become a provincial court judge." In Canada, you don't get elected. You apply through the process. "But that's not going to happen. So let's get started on this." Well, nine months later, it happened and there she is. And we had just begun that process. Now, she didn't walk away empty-handed. She was able to sell some of her book but had we started working, say, three years prior to that, she would have increased the value of the firm, she would have been able to put all those systems processes in place, templates to make the firm more profitable, scale it up, make it more attractive for an outside buyer, and what we were doing at the time was actually grooming from within for someone to take over succession. In her case, it wasn't bad news. She wanted to become a judge. So she became a judge.
But like really, I mean, I look at so many situations where the small firm owners walk away. And like, they haven't planned ahead long enough to put those systems-- What somebody is looking for as an outside buyer is a turnkey business. As much as possible, they want to come in and take over, do the client work, and it's already a well-oiled machine. And if you're just starting to think about it Tuesday and you want to retire next month, that doesn't leave you enough time.
[00:18:56] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah. And that all ties in with the systemizing the processes. That's all critical.
[00:19:04] Gary Mitchell: Everything does. Growth. Profitability. Everybody's talking about revenue. Most business owners focus everything on revenue. What about profitability, right? If you keep growing your revenues, but your profitability is not increasing, where are you going wrong? Well, in most cases, you don't have those systems and processes and templates right there.
[00:19:26] Michelle Calcote King: Exactly.
[00:19:27] Gary Mitchell: They're checks and balances, right? They help people at all levels of the firm do their jobs better, which in turn makes the clients happier.
[00:19:36] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah, absolutely.
So we've been talking about transition in the selling process with firms. What are some of the things firms need to think about if they're looking to sell?
[00:19:45] Gary Mitchell: First of all, I'm glad you asked that the way you did because that is not my area of expertise. So, when it gets to that point, or before that point actually, I will introduce them to a firm broker and that firm broker will really help them with the negotiation part. My job really is to get their firm to the place of being a well-oiled machine, turnkey operation, profitable. And in turn by doing that, I help that lawyer or the team increase the value of the firm. But then I pass it off to the broker on the negotiation side. I'm still involved in the transitioning, right? Working with the leaving owner and the incoming owner, but the negotiation part I will leave up to other experts.
[00:20:31] Michelle Calcote King: Well, I think what you're doing is the real critical part, which is getting it ready for it to be a sellable product. Without that, you know it's hard to even talk about a sale.
You used the word transition and I wanted to talk about transitions with lateral hires. Why is thinking about lateral hires and how to transition them into the firm important?
[00:20:52] Gary Mitchell: Wow.
I think it's the number one missed growth strategy out there right now and has been for some time. If you look at how much firms spend time, money, energy, money — I'll repeat it again, money — on marketing and trying to get new clients, it's astronomical.
When you are able to attract a high level lateral partner with a book of business — a solid book of business — it makes no sense to me why you would let them sink or swim and flounder away when they arrive at your firm.
There was an article recently written about this. I wish I remembered the name. It was actually the most amazing kind of play on when you see firms who get this right, their profitability increases, like, incredibly at a much higher rate. And the rep for recruiting and retention, which goes back to recruiting, which goes back to growth. I mean, it just, again, like, I see it as an incredible growth opportunity.
Let me tell you this funny story. I was working with a client and I worked with him years ago when he ran his own firm and then he got eaten up by a major national firm, and then he moved to a new major national firm. And we were out for lunch one day and he was telling me about his onboarding experience, his first day — and this goes to what law firms are not getting right. This was a high-profile partner with a million-dollar book. Okay? A million. Coming over and his clients were extremely loyal. They stayed with him from his own firm, moved to the national firm, and they were following him to the next national firm. So that was like a guaranteed million added to the revenues of the firm. That's not shabby, right? And he knows what he's doing. You don't have to provide any training in his field or his lawyering, all of that. But they just let him show up and find his own way around his office.
He said that his assistant was one floor below him. No one, you know, even showed him-- and he has a really good sense of humor. He goes, "No one even showed me where the washroom was." And I mean, that... "Wow" is right, but that happens all the time. So what do you do? The opposite of that. The managing partner greets that new partner at the front door. Day one. "Welcome to the firm." [The managing partner] walks them around the office, introduces them to the other influential or, you know, higher-ranked partners. "This is Bob. This is Sue. It's their first day. We want to welcome them to yada, yada, LLP." They take them to their office, they introduce them to their support staff. These are simple things, right?
That's one thing, but the most critical thing that will also shorten — and this is why it's so important for growth — when that person comes in, it usually takes about two years — this is statistics that have been out there. I don't know where they are, but they have been out there for a long time — almost two years to make them profitable because the large investment-- When you're looking at that high-level, what firms are investing in recruiting, the recruiting fees that they pay to get that, signing bonuses, whatever else it is, the outlay before any money starts coming in is astronomical. So to leave them alone and sink or swim, doesn't make any sense to me at all. Provide support for pennies on the dollar, get them building those internal relationships from day one. Their other partners, the associates, their team, right?
This analogy I think everyone can relate to. Think about if you ever moved when you were a child and you had to go to a new school.
[00:24:29] Michelle Calcote King: Right. Yeah. Right.
[00:24:32] Gary Mitchell: New teacher, new classmates, new curriculum, new policies, new procedures, new everything. That's a lawyer coming to a new firm. So you let them just go or you make them feel a part of it from day one. And again, what I do and work with those lawyers is, step one, is those internal relationships. Theoretically they've already done some well enough to be able to bring some or all of their book with them. So current clients wouldn't be the priority. The new internal relationships with the partners and associates is step one. And then, you know, getting to know the policies, procedures, things like that.
And I've had some amazing stories about transitions. Positive, very positive, where those two years has been cut to less than one year.
[00:25:19] Michelle Calcote King: Oh, that's huge.
[00:25:20] Gary Mitchell: And they're not only profitable, but they're becoming leaders and practice group leaders.
[00:25:24] Michelle Calcote King: Oh, wow.
[00:25:24] Gary Mitchell: It's amazing what's possible, right? Like, if growth is important, if profitability is important. And you do nothing else, do this well. I think that's what the article says, too. Do this well. You know, we can't do everything, right Michelle? Like, you know as well as I do being a business owner, we'd like, we have a likable, like to-do list. Check, check, check, check, check, check, check.
[00:25:47] Michelle Calcote King: So long.
[00:25:48] Gary Mitchell: Right? And it's like, okay, strategically if I can only do one thing, what would it be? I would say, especially because the craziness that we've gone under the last few years with the pandemic, with the great resignation, generational changes, and the--
[00:26:05] Michelle Calcote King: The rise of AI and tech.
[00:26:09] Gary Mitchell: Exactly.
[00:26:09] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah. It's just such a disruptive time. Yeah.
[00:26:12] Gary Mitchell: It's a hugely disruptive time, but remember what this is all about. Law firms are people. People are the most difficult part of any business. Technology's easy. Easy peasy. Press a button. Learn a new app. Blah, blah, blah. I don't want to get into AI. Again, I am not an expert. I don't know if there is one yet, but I'm definitely not.
But the people part, if you focus on this one area for growth, you know, and you get a rep, guess how many unhappy lawyers are out there.
[00:26:41] Michelle Calcote King: Yeah.
[00:26:41] Gary Mitchell: And you make it a warm and fuzzy place? Lucrative. The culture is amazing, people supporting each other, they collaborate, the clients are over the moon? The impact and repercussions are incredible.
[00:26:56] Michelle Calcote King: That's fantastic, yeah. And I can see how that would be a very underlooked area for firms. So, yeah, the upside would be great.
Well, I love to end conversations with sort of a bigger question. So, tell me, are you reading anything interesting right now?
[00:27:12] Gary Mitchell: As a matter of fact I'm listening to...
[00:27:15] Michelle Calcote King: Oh yeah. I do a lot of audiobooks, too. Yes.
[00:27:18] Gary Mitchell: Well, it's like, I don't know about you but having time to just sit and read.
[00:27:24] Michelle Calcote King: Very hard.
[00:27:24] Gary Mitchell: And I think there's a lot of people out there [like that]. So the new audiobook that I'm listening to is called "Atomic Habits."
[00:27:31] Michelle Calcote King: Ah, good one.
[00:27:32] Gary Mitchell: It's interesting that you asked me because everything we've talked about is about new habits. And remember when you asked me at the beginning of this, what do I do? That's such an open question and it's like, well, I do a lot of things, but what does it come down to? It comes down to me teaching my clients new habits and then holding them to account to keep them up long enough where they become second nature.
And those new habits sometimes are uncomfortable at the beginning, as clients will tell me. But they do them long enough, and they not only become comfortable, they can become part of their day. And so I'm loving this book. Everyone should read this book.
[00:28:12] Michelle Calcote King: It's a great one.
[00:28:12] Gary Mitchell: I mean, the analogies-- Yeah. The analogies he uses it's brilliant.
And I love recommending books to other people. So that would be one I would recommend: "Atomic Habits."
[00:28:22] Michelle Calcote King: Same to me. That's my go-to. If I have a problem, I'm like, there's a book to solve this somewhere.
[00:28:27] Gary Mitchell: And it's funny because since I've posted about that everyone, all of my colleagues that have heard of it, "Oh my God. I've read it. It's such a great book. You might also want to listen to this one."
[00:28:37] Michelle Calcote King: Love it.
Well, thank you so much. We've been talking to Gary Mitchell of OnTrac Coach. So Gary, if people want to get in touch, further this conversation with you, what's the best way for them to do that?
[00:28:48] Gary Mitchell: I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on social, mostly LinkedIn, but you can email me directly at gary@ontraccoach.com. But happy to be with you, Michelle, and I look forward to continuing our conversation at some point down the road.
[00:29:05] Michelle Calcote King: Yes, absolutely. Well, thank you.
[00:29:09] Announcer: Thanks for listening to Spill the Ink, a podcast by Reputation Ink. We'll see you again next time, and be sure to click "Subscribe" to get future episodes