About our guest:

Autumn Nash is a Product Manager at Microsoft specializing in Linux Security previously over four years at Amazon Web Services (AWS) as a Software Development Engineer, I currently contribute to the Language and Runtimes team, specializing in the development and release of Amazon Corretto (Java) while actively engaging in the OpenJDK community. Prior to this, Autumn's role as a NoSQL Solutions Architect involved guiding organizations in selecting purpose-built NoSQL databases, utilizing Python and Java to unblock customers and contribute to educational content. In addition to her technical expertise in solutions engineering, back-end web development, and cloud computing, Autumn is proud to be a mom, bringing a unique perspective to the tech industry. She is also an alumni member of Rewriting the Code, further enriching her commitment to effective communication and education. Serving as the Board Chair of Education at MilSpouse Coders and as a Chapter Leader for the Greater Seattle Area, her advocacy for collaborative learning and community development extends beyond technology.

Find our guest on:

Find us on:

All of our social channels are on bento.me/geekingout
All of Adriana's social channels are on bento.me/adrianamvillela

Show notes:

Additional notes:

Check out Autumn's podcast, Fork Around and Find Out, co-hosted with Justin Garrison
Tim Banks on Geeking Out, Episode 7, Episode 8, and Episode 28.

Transcript:
ADRIANA:
Hey, fellow geeks. Welcome to Geeking Out, the podcast about all geeky aspects of software delivery, DevOps, Observability, reliability, and everything in between. I'm your host, Adriana Villela, coming to you from Toronto, Canada. and geeking out with me today, I have Autumn Nash. Welcome, Autumn.

AUTUMN:
I'm so excited to finally virtually meet you.

ADRIANA:
I know. I'm excited too. And. And you are. I. I think we should play the, you know, six degrees to Tim Banks game, because, like...

AUTUMN:
Is anyone not six degrees from Tim Banks?

ADRIANA:
I know Tim has introduced me to so many amazing people, and I'm so grateful that he made the intros and that we just, like, hit it off. Like, there's been so many people on this podcast that Tim has introduced me to who have, like, now become good friends, and I'm like, oh, I feel.

AUTUMN:
Like he is, like, the ambassador of cool tech people, you know?

ADRIANA:
It is so true.

AUTUMN:
So Tim, like, if Tim is like, you have to meet, like, I hate it when people are like, oh, you should go meet this person. And I'm like, oh, I think it'd be cool. But, like, if Tim is like, go meet this person, like, you know they're going to be cool.

ADRIANA:
I know, right? So, Autumn, where are you calling from today?

AUTUMN:
I am in Seattle.

ADRIANA:
Okay, well, are you ready to get into our. Are. Are we gonna say lightning round questions? I don't think there'll be lightning today. Are you a lefty or a righty?

AUTUMN:
Righty. Look, I am directionally challenged sometimes. I will still, like, do the L thing. And, like, I also can use both hands, but definitely mostly righty.

ADRIANA:
Awesome. Okay, next question. Do you prefer iPhone or Android?

AUTUMN:
iPhone. Team iPhone.

ADRIANA:
Me too. Team iPhone.

AUTUMN:
Okay, good. I was like, please be team iPhone. Like.

ADRIANA:
One thing I wanted to ask, because I think we were talking about this before we started recording because you said you have an art degree, and then you got. And then you got yourself into tech. So I'm curious, how did that. How did you end up in tech from. From an art degree?

AUTUMN:
This is, like, the craziest, longest story, but so I love these stories. I love, like, painting and art and, like, just all the intersections of, like, how art is almost like a. It can be like love, but it could be, like, a protest against things that are, like, going wrong. It can be like, art is just, like, being creative, and art is just such a huge part of my life. But let me tell you, getting a fine arts degree and a graphic design degree does not pay the bills. And I really like fancy coffee and food. And I finished my first degree and I remember like taking my son with me to go like, walk. And it was great, but I was like, I had my own graphic design business and it was just like such a hustle to make so little money and people didn't value, like, they're like, oh, I can go on Fiverr. And like, I'm just like, well, then go to Fiverr. Because, like, I got a whole ass degree and I don't want to do something for $20. Like, you know what I mean?

ADRIANA:
Yes. Oh, God, I can so relate.

AUTUMN:
I was like, I spent so much money on an art degree. I don't want to spend a lot of money to go back to school. And I need a job that's going to make a certain amount of money, but I want to, like, enjoy it. And like, when I was in, I graduated high school and I got tattoos on my wrist because I was like, this is my buy in to never take a, like, shitty job that like, I can't be myself at. You know what I mean?

ADRIANA:
Yeah. I love that.

AUTUMN:
I was like, I need a job that, like, I can show up with like tattooed and pink hair and ridiculousness. And I want it. Like, I think that the way that people treat you at your job, like I always told my little brother, I'm like, you have to find a job that requires enough skill, that makes you special enough that hopefully there's a buy in for them to treat you like somewhat well. Right?

ADRIANA:
Yep.

AUTUMN:
So I was looking and I was like, I need something that's not going to cost a lot of money to go back to school. So I found a school that was not very expensive, which I've gotten a lot of for the school I went to, but whatever. And I was like, I really want it to do with like computers because I love computers. And I want it to be like. I was like, I was in, in the time. At the time I was pregnant with my second son and I was like, I wasn't really sure where my marriage was going. And I was like, I'm gonna have these little kids and I don't want to leave them at home. So it either needs to make enough money that I can put them somewhere that I feel like they're safe. Yeah. But it needs. Or it needs to be from home where I can, like, know that they're like, okay. Yeah. And the other then. So I was living in Virginia because I was married to someone in the military at the time. And I was living in Virginia by the Norfolk base. But like in Suffolk, which that matters later, it's like down the street from Hampton, Virginia.And the movie Hidden Figures came out. And I've always loved computers. I've always been, like, super into, like, how things work. And I got an iMac when I was, I think, in like the third, third grade. And it was the most magical thing ever to me because it was the clear color ones and watching all the circuits and all of that. And then I had, like, this weird sickness in high school and I had to get. Leave my art academy and go to the technical academy. And I just got thrown into one that I didn't want. And it was like building circuits. And I was like, this is so lame. Until I started putting the circuits together and figuring out how to, like, solder them all.

ADRIANA:
Yeah.

AUTUMN:
And like, just the experience of watching like, of like your first computer come into your house and like, seeing the. In the. The outside, I mean, the inside of like, what the computer is and turning it on and learning about, like, you know, like, files and floppy disk and all of that. And then the experience of seeing how you solder those, like, pieces on and how, like, just it's all ones and zeros, you know. And then so I was going to school for graphic design. And then also I had to take another technology class which kind of like, was like. It was like Information Technology 101. But it was kind of a lot of that.

Like, you know, like ones and zeros and how computers work. So fast forward, I was watching like, Hidden Figures. And I'd always been like, I don't know if I'm smart enough to go to school for, like, a computer science degree. And I think seeing like, Mary Jackson and like, Katherine Johnson and the fact that, like, they were brilliant, like, they were doing the work at NASA and like, Mary Jackson had gone to Hampton High School, which was right up the street from my house, right where my son was born. At the time I had actually had my son. And he's like, sitting in my lap, right? And I've got, like, a kid next to me watching this movie. And down the street from me, they wouldn't allow this woman who was a aeronautics engineer go to school while she's doing the job. But they wouldn't let her take night classes at that school to, like, further herself. They wouldn't let them go to the bathroom. And, like, it was wild because my son's fifth birthday, yeah. Was at that museum that is now the Katherine Johnson, like, space museum that's right down the street from, like, Langley. And I love space and all that, kind of. And I was just like, I love it so much. I love the Hubble telescopes and everything.

ADRIANA:
I love space too!

AUTUMN:
Girl, we were like, meant for each other. Like, so, like, it just kind of sunk in. Like, how am I gonna tell these little boys? Like, grow up and you can do whatever you want if I'm too much of a chicken to do what I want, Right?

ADRIANA:
Yeah. Yeah.

AUTUMN:
Like, how am I gonna, like, give them a life? Like, I just. I wanted my kids to have a better life. Like, I had such a bad childhood and, like, just. It wasn't like, what I wanted for my kids. And I want it to, no matter what, be able to give my kids a good life. Like, no matter what happens, whether I stayed married or didn't stay married, but I wanted to give them a life where I could still mom, you know? And like, I just got to the point where I was like, well, like, this something I've always really, really loved. And it's like, come up so much in my life. Like I said in high school, it came up like, over and over again. And you're like, well, maybe like at some point, like, you should realize that's like calling you, you know? Yeah. And I was like, there's like so many people that came before me and they fought for the right just to get an education. And I'm going to sit here and like, basically self reject myself before I've even tried, you know? So I had signed up and I went back to school and Carter, which is my second kid, was four months old and I had gone back to school to Maryland. It's like Maryland University, but it's called Maryland University College because it's the military version of Maryland University. So I get all the time for not having a real computer science degree, and it's a software and development security degree. And like, it's not from a fancy school because cares, right?

ADRIANA:
You're kicking ass here. So who cares?

AUTUMN:
So I ended up doing like, my first couple of Java. Java. Well, I did a C class and I did Java classes and I, like, fell in love with Java. I was like, the structure and the brackets and it's beautiful. And I had gone to get help and my friend was like, hey, there's like this. Someone like I've never met on Facebook was like, there's this new military spouse thing that they're helping with coding and stuff. And you've been really into it, talking about it all, like, on Facebook, because I had, like, I was so excited about starting school. And, like, my homework was hard, and I kept making all these Facebook statuses about it.

So I go down and get help, and lo and behold, this is going to become my best friend of the last, like, what, 12 years? And it's funny, I have the truth table notes that she wrote for me, like, from that day. And she helped me with her home with my Java homework, and we've been literal best friends ever since. And I started getting involved with Milspouse Coders, and I became a virtual chapter leader. And then I became on hackathon committee, and we did that. Then they, like, watched us for a long time for a year. And we asked Microsoft and AWS to sponsor, and they said no. And then they said that they're going to watch us the next year. They came back and Microsoft fully sponsored the next hackathon.

And I was like, I'm moving to Seattle and I want to get a job. Then I found out I was pregnant, and I was like, oh, no, what if this ruins my career? And I had an actual female engineer be like, you're never going to get a job now. Like, you just ruined your career. And like, so, like, when I announced it, there wasn't like, congratulations. She was just like, you were working so hard. Why would you ruin your career like that?

ADRIANA:
Oh, my God.

AUTUMN:
Yeah, it was wild. Like, I've had worse things said to me by women than men, but I.

ADRIANA:
I can vouch for that. I've had the same.

AUTUMN:
It's wild.

ADRIANA:
I know! Like, what. What are we doing to each other?

AUTUMN:
I don't like, like there sometimes the stuff that, like, she was just like, you're already, like, in your 30s and, like, it's gonna take you longer and like, now you're gonna like, why would you have another kid? And I was like, thanks. That was the congratulations I was looking for and. And the encouragement right now. So I was like. I told my husband at the time, and I was like, dude, we need to get to Washington. I was like, I want to take the MSAA program, which was the military spouse program at the time. And I was like, we have a hackathon at Microsoft. So I was like, okay, everybody, give me six weeks.

Give me six weeks to drop this baby. I'll get to Washington and I'll, like, be the co chair for, like, the hackathon. So I moved to Washington. Well, we move across country. I stopped in Hollywood, Hawaii, in California, because I'm waiting for my house to be built and like, literally get to Washington, have a baby. I talked to the lady for like program. The program manager for the hackathon. Shout out to Monica because I love her and we're still friends and I can't wait to get coffee when you get back.

What do you call it? And she was like, are you in labor right now? Get off the phone. Like, I rolled up with a big ass data structures book and like, I'm over there like trying to figure out like this whole thing. And I went to meet her before that and she's. I was like, I'm coming back with a baby. And she just looked at me like, like, I love that. But like, she literally was like, go have a baby. Like, Monica is like, she is legit. Like, I love her.

She is the most. She's a gold star mom. She is just a phenomenal human and I've learned so much from her. But I literally met her because she kicked me off the phone when I was trying to plan a hackathon while I was in labor. And so that's how it started. But I ended up getting. Someone told me about the AWS program and ended up as an apprentice at AWS because they didn't do another cohort of the msaa and it was kind of like hard to get to because it was in one, it was in Tacoma and they didn't make. They didn't really think about all the different bases having to like come to this one place.

So that kind of started my whole career. I didn't even know what a solutions architect was. And then all of a sudden I was a specialist solutions architect and I wanted to be a developer while I was finishing my degree. So then I switched over to becoming a developer after being a NoSQL database solutions architect for two years. And then I ended up developer on the Corretto team for creating Amazon's version of Java.

ADRIANA:
That is so cool. Oh my God. And you've touched upon like so many cool things. Like, first of all, I can still relate on, on, you know, getting shit when you were doing graphic design. Because I so partway through my career, I, I quit tech to become a professional photographer for a year.

AUTUMN:
Oh my God. I was a photographer too.

ADRIANA:
Oh my God. That's wild. So you, you probably experienced similar to what you experienced as a graphic designer, which is like, well, I could take these photos with my phone. I'm like, okay, but they're not gonna look as good.

AUTUMN:
Dude. People, I, I really hope that AI fucks art up so bad that people like, I hope it becomes the other way where people start to appreciate art and the hand drawn and, like, how much effort humans have to put into it. Like, I'm going to get finish one of my tattoos after this. And my tattoo artist is like, I can't even go on Pinterest to get, like, pictures anymore and to get examples because, like, everything is AI and it's like, just so, like, altered, you know?

ADRIANA:
Yeah, yeah. Like, you can tell.

AUTUMN:
Yeah.

ADRIANA:
Oh, sorry. Go ahead. I was gonna say, like, I. I think we. We have a bit of a. Kind of a rebellion towards that with. With the resurgence of, like, the popularity of vinyl, for example, or even. Even film for taking. For taking photos. Like, there's like this huge movement now for. For film photography in place of digital photography. So I. I think we're starting to see some of that rebellion going on.

AUTUMN:
There's so much beauty in things that are handmade or made with imperfection. Like.

ADRIANA:
Yeah.

AUTUMN:
For instance, like, what do you call it? Impressionism is like, one of my favorite forms of art because it's like, it's not perfect, you know, and, like, it kind of hurt my soul. Going from, like, fine arts and drawing and painting to graph design. Like, I saw it as a way to make money with art, but I didn't really love it because so much of it was taking out the imperfections.

ADRIANA:
Right, right. Yeah, I can see that.

AUTUMN:
And then, like, so much of photography, like, people don't want, like, beautiful photography that, like, is kind of candid. They want, like, overly photoshopped, like, perfection. Like, and it's just like, I don't want to. I want to take pictures of beautiful things and kind of a. It's almost like an observation. And like, it's like, you know, when you go to, like, a temple to worship something, it's almost like an appreciation. You know what I mean?

ADRIANA:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

AUTUMN:
Like, when we're all old and gray, like, what you'll have left are photos and people want to take, like. Like, have you seen those pictures that, like, you could tell, like, monarchs got painted for themselves and it doesn't even look like how they actually looked and stuff.

ADRIANA:
Oh, yeah.

AUTUMN:
Like, that's what people want us to do with photos, you know?

ADRIANA:
Like, so true. It's so true. And. And I. I agree with you. Like, one of, like, my specialty used to be, like, family photography. And I used to do, like, a photo journalistic style, like, very candid photography. And the thing that drove me crazy, I'd sit my clients down and say, okay, this is my style. I'm just documenting your day. I'm like a fly on the wall. I'm not expecting you turn around and smile at me. And there were like inevitably families, most families unfortunately, who would like as soon as they saw the camera trained on them, they'd like turn around and go . Give me their best fake smile.

AUTUMN:
Which gives you the ugliest pictures ever.

ADRIANA:
Oh my God, they were horrible. And, and, and it was like, oh my God, people. Like, you're ignoring everything that I just told you. And, and of course the best photos that I got were the candids when they weren't.

AUTUMN:
But isn't that so funny that that also translates to tech. Like people will on an art degree and they'll be like, oh well like that, like you don't have a fancy degree. But some of the best people that I've ever met are the people that have like non traditional like backgrounds. But also how much does that translate? How many times have you told something about someone, something about something technically and you said this is not a good idea or this would work better another way. It's literally the same shit. Like it's so fun. Like it's the same struggle. And you're like, I've been doing this. Like I'm trying to tell you, I know that so and so documentation told you you can do this but in production this is going to be painful. And they're like, oh, the customer wants this. And you're like okay, look.

ADRIANA:
Yeah. Way, way, way too many times. And, and I, I agree. Like people can be so prissy about degrees, so prissy about where you go to school. Like I did a ranty post on LinkedIn, I don't know, a couple months back, talking about...

AUTUMN:
Can we talk about your ranty posts? I love them so much.

ADRIANA:
Oh yeah, my ranty posts.

AUTUMN:
I'd be so here for it. Like always like, and then this dumb person, I'm like, girl, tell them, tell them. I'm like, finally somebody else like is saying this, all this is bullshit.

ADRIANA:
I'm just like, I don't know. I, I, you know when you were talking about the fact that like you got these tattoos kind of as a reminder to like be yourself and at the workplace.

AUTUMN:
Because it's so easy to self abandon. Like we're trained as women to self abandon our needs and we're trained to like and I, I do like for, to take care of my kids and to make a living. Like I'll do whatever I have to do but like we spend more time at work than we do anywhere. You know what I mean?

ADRIANA:
Like yeah.

AUTUMN:
And with this RTO bullshit, they're gonna force us to work even longer. And they want everyone to work in person. Like, all the shit that we learned over Covid and everything, like, out the window. We've. We've literally were like, oh, we had better, and we don't want it now. What? Like, and I'm just like, I. I don't want to. And I mean, I've had those tattoos since I was 18, but, like, there's got to be, like, a balance of, like, I think especially, like, as moms and as women, like, we know that, like, you might cry, but you, like, put some, like, good music on that has bad words in it, and then you thug it out, like, after you cry, you know, like, you're like, oh, that was horrible.

AUTUMN:
Okay, let's get this done. At the same time, like, there's some things that, like, you only get one life, you know?

ADRIANA:
Yeah.

AUTUMN:
Like, and I want it to be, like, a good one, and I want it to have, like, good people in it, and I want to, in the best of my ability, provide for my children and. But create a good career that I'm, like, proud of, you know?

ADRIANA:
Yes, yes, I agree. Like, I. I used to go through the motions of. And actually, that's one of the reasons why I quit my tech job to become a professional photographer was because at the time, I hated what I was doing. Like, I was so bored in my tech job. I'm like, I need a complete change. And I'm at least super passionate about photography and a little bit obsessed. And it was, like, shiny new thing that I can put all my energy into and just made me genuinely happy. And when I came out on the other side and decided to go back into tech, I became, like, really reinvigorated by tech because at that point I realized realize, like, oh, I actually love tech. I was just not loving what I was doing in tech before.

AUTUMN:
Isn't it wild how you can get a job that feels like your dream job or that feels like the job you've always wanted and then you get it and you're like, what the fuck is this?

ADRIANA:
Oh, my God, that's happened so many times.

AUTUMN:
But nobody tells you about. Also, like, when you accomplish goals. Like, I think we all set out with, like, everyone tells you you have to make the first goal, right?

ADRIANA:
Yeah.

AUTUMN:
But nobody tells you about the almost loss of, like, when you get that goal and it's either not what you expected or, like, you get it and then you don't know what to do from there.

ADRIANA:
Yeah, yeah, I. I have a horrible problem. And. And maybe you can relate as well where I accomplished something and I will celebrate for, you know, about five seconds. And then I'm like, I need to accomplish something else that'll top this. Otherwise I'm a failure.

AUTUMN:
It's so toxic.

ADRIANA:
And, and yet, you know, like, this is what drives me. And people are like, you're so successful and you're so motivated and look at you go. And meanwhile, I'm like, I'm, I'm like.

AUTUMN:
I feel like all the time. Yeah. It's chasing the high of accomplishment constantly and it's not, it's not healthy at all.

ADRIANA:
Toxic. This is why like over the break I've, I've had to like disconnect from. From social media. Like, the only social media I've been checking is my personal Instagram and everything else. Like, I, I have a friend yesterday, he's like, hey, did you see this post on LinkedIn where I tagged you? I'm like, nope. And he's like, but. And I'm like, yeah, I, I swore off social media for like during my break. Sorry.

AUTUMN:
Is a reminder of like the sunken place of tech right now. And it just gives me anxiety and I just, I can't with it right now.

ADRIANA:
I like LinkedIn but I, you have to kind of take it with a grain of salt because there's like. So I, I use it honestly. Like, I use it to like self. I use it for self promotion because no one gonna promote yourself but you.

AUTUMN:
But, no, but say that louder for the people in the back because women are bad at that. And it's the only way that you are going to make it. Like nobody gives a shit about your. And especially working in tech. Majority of it, especially if it's enterprise. Nobody's going to know you're doing cool shit because we're all under NDAs. So if you don't find something that you can make to talk about like that is a career hack, you have to learn. Like I'm terrible at talking about myself. You should see me trying to make dating app bios. I get ChatGPT to write them. Like, but like when it comes to being professional, you have to learn how to talk about yourself. That is a skill that you need.

ADRIANA:
It's so important. And, and I, I actually mentioned this in a talk that I, in a keynote that I gave recently about the importance of self promotion.

AUTUMN:
Because look at you keynoting over here.

ADRIANA:
Like, oh, first keynote. I was like, I was so nervous.

AUTUMN:
I so proud of you. Look at you.

ADRIANA:
Oh, thank you. As a sidebar on this keynote. So because they asked me to keynote, and I was going to give a tech talk. And I'm like, I don't want to give a tech talk at the opening of a conference. Like, I. I want to do something inspiring. I don't want to bore y'all to death. Right? But then I was, like, second guessing myself.

AUTUMN:
I don't think you could ever be boring.

ADRIANA:
Awww. Thank you.

AUTUMN:
I don't think you possess that, like, quality at all.

ADRIANA:
I am so glad to hear.

AUTUMN:
I think you'd have to try really hard, and you'd probably suck at it. It'd be the only thing you'd be better.

ADRIANA:
Oh. So at this. At this keynote, I was like, oh, I. I don't want to do, like, a tech talk. I want to do something inspirational. And then. And then I started second guessing myself because I'm like, oh, my God, of course the girl is going to do a non tech talk talk at a tech conference. This was like, me getting in my head, right? We. We love to get into...

AUTUMN:
But that is a struggle of trying to.

ADRIANA:
Such a struggle.

AUTUMN:
You have to, like, make that balance. Like, I've been trying really intentionally to not make any diversity talks in the next year or so because I feel like I had so many. Like, they were data talks. They were talking about data bias. It was a lot of. Yeah, yeah, DevOps. But it was also a lot of diversity. And I was like, oh, I don't want that to be all I'm known for, you know?

ADRIANA:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And I. I think that's. That's like, a fine balance, which is why I was, like, freaking out on this talk. Right? Because I'm like, oh, my God, of course they're gonna expect, you know, this from a girl. But I got like. But one of the pieces of advice that I gave in this talk is it turned into, like, basically, like, these are things that I've learned throughout my. What is it, 20+ years?

AUTUMN:
Those are the best talks. You were. You were channeling your. Any inner Kelsey Hightower. Okay.

ADRIANA:
Like, thank you. Yeah. So I. I shared. I shared this piece of advice of, like, you know, promote yourself. That it's. It's really hard, but, like, you know, you might have, like, amazing friends who will promote you as well, which is amazing. Like, I love it when that happens. But at the end of the day, you got to fight for your own, you know, for your own survival in. In the tech world.

AUTUMN:
I think that a lot of engineers are so introverted too, and they're not like, people-y.

ADRIANA:
Yeah.

AUTUMN:
That, like, I know some brilliant engineers that are like, basically, like, beholden to like big tech companies because they really think that they can't do anything else. And I'm like, dude, you're so smart. Like, you could go anywhere.

ADRIANA:
Yeah, yeah, I, I agree. And, and I, you know, I, I've learned for myself at least that my kind of tech company vibe is a company where I feel like I can be myself and swear freely. Like, I honestly, like, for me, the sign of a psychologically safe workplace is one where people will not look at me funny if I let out "fucks" and "shits" on a regular basis. And for me that's super important. I know it sounds, it may sound silly to some people listening who might be, oh my God, swearing in the workplace is horrible, but for me it's psychological safety because it means that I can absolutely be myself and that, you know, if I wanted to like, you know, do like, I, I don't have to suppress my personality because that's what I found in, in previous workplaces that I worked at a bank for 11 years. It was like, it was a personality suppression experiment is what it felt like to the point where I, I tried so hard to like, also fit in and be like one of the guys that I, I feel at the time I thought I was like, oh, I'm so cool, I can like banter with the guys. And, and I feel like I lost my, my own personality in that too, which is so horrible.

AUTUMN:
But that is so valid though. Like, I, Being an engineer was my dream and I left like being a solutions architect to be an engineer.

ADRIANA:
Yeah.

AUTUMN:
And it was so toxic. Like, it was always like, you don't have a real CS degree and you don't have this and like, it's okay, but you don't because you don't have this and you like, or this and it was never going to be good enough. Like, nothing I did was ever, I wasn't going to be technical enough. And then it was funny, I interviewed for my new job and they're like, man, we can tell you're an engineer, we're going to have to coach you how to be a product manager. And I was like, what me? Like, I get told every day that I have to like, I'm too, too into process management and like to making processes better and I'm not technical enough. And it was wild how other people saw me because I was fucking miserable. I was oh so miserable. And I had people I loved working with, but I was never going to be good enough. And like, it's funny you said that you felt psychological safety with people that swear. But that's how I pick my mom friends. That's how I pick my tech friends. That's how.

ADRIANA:
Yes.

AUTUMN:
Look, I'm gonna learn how to run Kubernetes just to hang out with y'all, because everybody has tattoos, cool hair, piercings, and, like, that's. Look, when I walk into a room, I find the one mom that looks like she's just as unhinged as me. And I'm like, we have to be besties so we can survive through whatever this mom event is, like, you know?

ADRIANA:
Oh, my God. So relatable. I, I, I gotta tell you, like, I am, like, most parents annoy me, dude.

AUTUMN:
Nobody tells you. People tell you about the diapers. They tell you about, like, the. How they eat all your food and all this. No one tells you you have to talk to people that you don't want to talk to. Like, hopes for your child. Okay? Like, and my kids are such extroverts. And don't. Well, I don't know. My son's kind of an introverted extrovert, like my oldest. But, like, like, talking to parents because they just happen to have a kid that likes your kid.

ADRIANA:
Oh, my God, it's the worst.

AUTUMN:
Yeah.

ADRIANA:
And you don't have anything else in common. Or have you ever had the other one where, like, you love the parents, but their kid is a shit. Because...

AUTUMN:
Yes! Oh, my God. I'm just like, I just want to hang out with your mom. Don't terrorize my children.

ADRIANA:
I know. Yeah. I had to end some friendships with, like, parents I really like, because their kids are horrible, horrible individuals. And I'm like, how did you. How did you, like, spew out Satan's spawn? And how is it that you're nice and your kid sucks?

AUTUMN:
I do think it's mostly the parents because little kids are cute, right? Like, I can put up with a lot from a little kid because, like, for the most part, my kids are so, like, the, like, the, the little bit of me in them is so strong that for the most part that they'll probably just, like, sarcastically, like, bully the other one into, like, being nice, you know? And there's, like, three of them, and they run in a pack, so for the most part.

ADRIANA:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Nice, nice.

AUTUMN:
Like, they're only gonna get so far, like, you know, like, and then, like, I'm quick to be, like, the mama. Like, this one kid. Like, there's three kids that my, like, middle kid hangs out with, and, like, this one kid is, like, his parents are not the best. And his like, always like, he kind of is mean when the other two are getting along, you know, and he wants to say mean stuff. And he was talking shit to my kid and I was like, I can hear you. Like, I am such the asshole parent. Like, don't play with my kids. Like, yeah, yeah, I. And then like, I just always make sure that, like, it's always like a surprise and I'm like behind the bush. So that way, like, they like, are like, I'm like, I want you to think that I'm always watching and that I may always pop out somewhere. So, like, keep your little life together. I don't care if you're six. I'll come for you and your mama.

ADRIANA:
Yeah, you gotta protect your kids best interests. Like, I, I don't know. Like, there are some kids, like, maybe my style of parenting is, is very like, not normal for this day and age. I don't know.

AUTUMN:
But like, whatever it is, it's fire though, because you'd be doing all the things together. So like, look, I'm coming to you and my kids are teenagers. Be like, how do I make them like you?

ADRIANA:
Thank you. I. I was gonna say though, like, I. I don't know. Like, if. So, like, when Hannah was little, she was in a certain number of like, activities, like swimming and, and she did dance for a while. Like, we experimented with a few things, but after a while we're like, we just want our fucking Saturdays back, man.

AUTUMN:
Dude, my kids do jiu jitsu and that's it. Because one, like, it stops them from choking the of each other at my house. And two, I hate that. Like, look, I'm probably a bad mom because, like, I fucking refuse to have like eight different activities. I have three kids and like, people over schedule their children. Like, I don't want to. I have like two days off and I want to sit at home and be our normal little nerdy selves away from the world. And I don't want to talk to any. And I don't want to get rained on on a Saturday for soccer. Like, I live in Washington. I have black girl hair.

ADRIANA:
Oh, the humidity is our enemy. I. I have like naturally curly hair. I straighten it in the winter, but it's like full on curl in the summer.

AUTUMN:
See, you understand. I am not doing all that in the bathroom. And like, guilt. Yeah, you know it's hot when you're straightening your hair. You'd be dying the whole time. I'm not doing all that to come out and get rained on. Okay.

ADRIANA:
No, no, no, no. I. I am with you. I protect the hair at all costs. In the winter, like, in the summer. I gave. I give up. It's like, it's humid. It's. It is what it is. But, yes, I. I am with you. Like, I. You know, I, I. And I love that we're getting to talk about being a working mom in tech on here, because I think I had one other guest who I. I talked to about this, and I think we have to have more conversations about, like, you know, balancing that Also, like, there's. I don't know if there's such a thing as balancing. We survive. We survive as working moms in tech. We make it work.

AUTUMN:
I try to create some sort of a harmony because there's some times where my character is gonna come.

ADRIANA:
Yeah.

AUTUMN:
Which I feel, like, bad. I'm quoting Amazon. Oh, like, PTSD is real. But, like. But it's true, though, because sometimes if you have to release something, I have to be like, I'm gonna order Doordash and everybody go play the PlayStation and let's just survive this. And then there's some days where my kids come first, and, like, I'm gonna have to dip out early, but I promise to work more hours later. Like, you just. They're like. It's just trying to keep it all together. Like, half the time, I just feel like I'm trying to survive.

ADRIANA:
Yeah.

AUTUMN:
And, like, get it done.

ADRIANA:
I agree. I agree. Yeah. And you gotta. I mean, I. When. When my daughter was. Was really little and I. Her daycare used to be near my office. And I remember, you know, those early days where they pick up all the diseases. Like... How the hell, man?

AUTUMN:
I'm going through that right now.

ADRIANA:
I. Oh, my God. It's hard, right? And so I. I would, like, I had days where I'd literally, like, drop off my kid at daycare, walk into the office, get a call. Hannah's running a fever. We need you to pick her up. I'd be like, hey, guys. Bye, guys. Like, and I'd feel so guilty about. About that. Because...

AUTUMN:
You're feeling guilty. While you're the one that's in this horrible situation where you don't have to work from home and take care of a sick kid. You know what I mean?

ADRIANA:
Yeah. And meanwhile, you're, like, feeling like everyone's staring at you, like, oh, my God, she's not pulling her weight. Like, I always felt like I was getting, especially from my male co-workers. And it was like, it was so frustrating. And it's not that my husband didn't help, but he worked like, he. So I was lucky that Hannah's daycare was near my workplace. My husband worked, like, far away. He had to drive to work. I had the. I had the privilege of being able to subway to work from my place. He had. He had an hour drive each way, so it was like he couldn't be the one doing that, unfortunately. And so it fell on me. It's just, I was.

AUTUMN:
Statistically, women are always the ones that end up taking the flexible jobs over the greedy jobs. To the point where it got brought up in the. It's a Harvard economist. Her paper, she's a Nobel Prize rate winner and her paper about how to close the wage gap was literally having two partners that both took on the same, like, mental load and like, load for the house because she was like, we can do all the programs, we can do all of the things, but we will never close the wage gap without that. And it's like wild. Like, out of all the fancy ways that we've tried to solve that problem. And it's crazy because you're so right. Like, we don't talk about being a working mom and we can, like, and everybody, like, I don't know, the attitude towards kids now just is weird. Like in having kids.

I always feel like I have to apologize or like I'm lesser, you know, but look at where the world is.So it's like, what you said is so true. Like, if we don't make working mothers more of something that we see. Like, that's why, like, there's so many times where I wanted to give up on being an engineer or give up on being in tech, especially the last two years. And, like, yeah, representation matters, like, to little brown girls like me, because the only black engineer I ever saw for a long time was Angie Jones. Without Angie Jones, I wouldn't be here, you know? But also, like, I get questions all the time and they'll be like, can I be an. I did a Rewriting the Code thing, and they were like, can I be a mom and an engineer? And I almost didn't know what to say. And I want to tell her, yes, you can. But look at how toxic and weird is right now. Like, you know what I mean?

ADRIANA:
We should get paid more for. For juggling more stuff. Like, seriously...

AUTUMN:
In the age of AI, we're really going to fuck around and say that, like, techno, like, being technical is the only thing that matters, bro. Like, we're going to have so many things that can write code, but knowing if it's good code, knowing if that code is going to work, being able to talk to teams, being able to build relationships, that is what's going to set us apart. Being able to, like, work under stress, multitasking, being a mom, being an engineer are so intersectional. Like, what do you mean?

ADRIANA:
Big time. Big time. Yeah. And. And we gotta. We gotta keep having these conversations. We also, like, every time I talk to my American friends who are moms and hear about your maternity leave policies, girl, like, in Canada, I got a year off.

AUTUMN:
You had a year off?

ADRIANA:
Okay, I had a year off. So for my first, I want to say first, like, two or three months, I got 80, 85 or 95 pay from my employer. And then the rest I got. I was on unemployment and I was still guaranteed to get my job back when I came back after a year. And now they've upped it in Canada that you can be out for up to 18 months. And then I hear all the shit y'all get in the States. What is it, six weeks?

AUTUMN:
Yo. Okay, so the other day I was on TikTok and it was this thing and it was talking about how Vex or whoever and Elon said that Americans were mediocre. And this girl goes, if you're a black woman or any kind of a working woman in America. You know that they tell you that you have to do double of whatever you need to do to get a job to be able to get that job as a woman. And she goes, we continuously under fund. I'm an under fund education. We don't give people the chance to be with their children. We make people work, like, crazy hours.

They're working multiple jobs to try to survive in the economy. And he's like. And she's like. And you think that, like, we aren't going to get to the point of being mediocre, which I don't agree with, Elon, with the whole, like, we have to, like, I think he's going to use, like. I think one thing we don't talk about in tech enough is that he's going to use HB1 visas to abuse people. That is going to be the new form of, like, indentured servitude, where they're going to underpay people and they are going to absolutely abuse people that come here. So. And they're going to have to put up with it because it's their way to stay in the country and it's their way to support their families, and that's because they deserve better treatment and they don't deserve to be like.

Like, think about when Twitter went to shit. The only people in those pictures where he's talking about how they're staying 24 hours were people that were basically held against their will because they were on HB1 visas.

ADRIANA:
Yeah. Yeah.

AUTUMN:
That is going to turn in the next four years. It is going to be the new version of indentured servitude where we can underpay people and treat them like. And like, people are blaming, like, immigrants in tech, like, and saying that it's their fault that Americans aren't getting jobs. No us allowing them to be abused and paid less and, like, working in horrible conditions, like, is going to be because Americans don't want it. It's just like, when we let people work in the fields because if not the flake, the food will rot.

ADRIANA:
Yeah, Yep.

AUTUMN:
And, like, if we don't stand up for them, whether it not, maybe it's not you, maybe it's not what you're doing, but if we just let it be, like, you're just as bad, you know?

ADRIANA:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I. I totally agree. And I think that's a really important point to make. And especially, like...

AUTUMN:
We're literally watching it. When we were all hiring engineers at the former Non Company We Won't Name. They're not hiring white guys. They're hiring people that they know are young. All of them. Like, when you're at like 45% of new college grads for a major ginormous thing and they're all HB1 visas, it's because you know you're going to make them work a million hours, you know that they don't have families at home, and the way that they treat them is horrible, and it's not right. And we're just sitting here letting it happen.

ADRIANA:
Yeah, absolutely. I, you know, interestingly enough, I. I experienced like a smaller version of that to a certain extent. When I, When I had my first job out of school, I worked in consulting and they worked us to the bone. Like, I. My first role was like, I was working 7 days a week, like easily like 10 to probably like 14 hour days kind of thing for like, I think almost two months. And I remember like complaining to my manager. I'm like, I need a weekend off. And I was the only one who complained. And I felt like an idiot. I felt like, oh, I'm the whiny. Of course it's the girl who's whining. She can't hack it.

AUTUMN:
Definitely.

ADRIANA:
And I'm like, dude, I can't, I can't do this anymore. And. And I was going to complain with this other guy. He was, he was engaged and his fiancée's like, what the fuck, man? I never see you. And he was going to complain with me and he chickened out because he was too scared. And he was older. I was like a fresh kid out of school.

AUTUMN:
That's another thing. Women's rights, rights for minorities, rights for everyone. Like, if I have these two engineers on my old team and I remember when they start talking about RTO, I was like, dude, I can't be the only person that says it's bad, you know? And my senior engineer, who's like the most. One of the most seniors on our team, that was like a really good part of our release team. He was like, my wife is, you know, in school, my wife and me have two kids and we're sharing the load. And this is going to be like, really bad for my family. And like, people ask me all the time when I give, like, talks about women getting in tech and how we can get women tech, and they'll be like, well, what can I do to help? And I'm like, be the dude who says, I have to go to the vet, I have to take my kids here, I have to pick my kids up. Because when you make it not weird and we're the only people that are saying it, you make it so much easier for women.

ADRIANA:
It's so true. It's so true. Yeah. And that's another thing that comes up a lot is like, use your privilege.

AUTUMN:
Yes. It's like, people think it's not a big deal. It's such a big deal.

ADRIANA:
Such a huge deal.

AUTUMN:
Yeah.

ADRIANA:
You gotta. You gotta. You gotta show people that it's okay. Like, give them that psychological safety. It's so, so, so important.

AUTUMN:
For sure. I think that's the only way that we get through the next couple of years is, like, sticking up for each other, you know?

ADRIANA:
Exactly. Exactly. I love that. And I know I could keep going on and on, but we are coming up on time. But before we part ways, do you want to give, like, one either last piece of parting advice or. Or spicy thoughts on anything?

AUTUMN:
I think what we landed on was really good. Like, I think we all have privilege. I have privilege. The fact that I've gotten to have, like, rad jobs. Like, we all have privilege. Like, stop being an. And use your privilege to stick up for other people.

ADRIANA:
You know, I love that so much.

AUTUMN:
Like, definitely, like, after you climb a ladder, like, reach back and help somebody else climb too.

ADRIANA:
Yeah. I am fully with you on. On that, I think. You know, I. I've always said this. I keep saying it. We're all here because someone believed in us at some point in our careers.

AUTUMN:
And now that we don't have Twitter, Dude, Twitter was such a good way to meet people. I guess Bluesky's come in, but.

ADRIANA:
This guy's getting there, I think, which is nice. I'm. I'm. I'm kind of happy with how it's.

AUTUMN:
I'm really happy with it.

ADRIANA:
But, yeah, I. I agree. And the other thing, too, to add to that is I think we. Whenever, you know, you and I have talked about imposter syndrome before in other conversations.

AUTUMN:
So bad.

ADRIANA:
And I think, you know, like, I struggle with it still all the time, even. And. And the. The thing that I try to tell myself is, like, someone asked us to be here. Like, you know, when you were saying how you're getting shit over, like, the degree that you had and. And. And all that, and it's like, but you were asked to be where you were. It's not like you just. This job magically fell on your lap. Like, you know, like...

AUTUMN:
I still am. Like, how did I get this job there? Like, what if I don't do well, oh my God.

ADRIANA:
I have this constant fear. Yeah. What's the word?

AUTUMN:
What if they find out? Yes.

ADRIANA:
Yeah. Yeah.

AUTUMN:
It was so fun.

ADRIANA:
Remember, you were asked to be there and I, I try to remind myself of that too. We were asked to be here. Someone believed in us and therefore we deserve to be here. And, and I think it's, it's on us to use our privilege also to, to help out those who are starting out in their careers, especially those of us who look like us, so that we can continue to inspire them.

AUTUMN:
At this point, we're going to even have to help out each other who's been in this career because look at how it is. Like people with 20 years of experience are having a hard time. Like it is wild how much we've all are just got to like stick together and like help each other, you know.

ADRIANA:
It's so true. And I'm very grateful, I have to say, for the tech community, definitely the tech community that I've found in the last, last, you know, like five years. I feel like it's been, it's been hiding where I've. I wasn't aware with a bit and I'm so grateful to have found it.

AUTUMN:
All you cool people have been hanging out in Kubernetes. That's what like the secret was. I was over there in like Java and like stuff and then all the cool people with like cool colored hair and tattoos were chilling in the Kubernetes.

ADRIANA:
Yeah, they were definitely not chilling in the banks. Either that or they were like hiding their cool sleeve tats under like the button up shirts and the, and, and the suit jackets.

AUTUMN:
Spending all that money just to cover up the cool art.

ADRIANA:
I know, right? All right, well, thank you so much, Autumn for geeking out with me today. Y'all. Don't forget to subscribe and be sure to check out the show notes for additional resources and to connect with us and our guests on social media. Until next time...

AUTUMN:
Peace out and geek out.

ADRIANA:
Geeking Out is hosted and produced by me, Adriana Villela. I also compose and perform the theme music on my trusty clarinet. Geeking Out is also produced by my daughter, Hannah Maxwell, who incidentally designed all of the cool graphics. Be sure to follow us on all the socials by going to bento.me/geekingout.

Hersch Lauterpacht Memorial Lectures 2024: 'International Borders in an Interdependent World' - Lecture 2: 'Treaties and Neighbors: Recovering the Cooperative Roots of International Bordering' - Prof Beth Simmons, University of Pennsylvania