458 - WTFF? The Madness of the Zizian Cult

Jun 9, 2025

Dive into the bizarre world of the Zizian cult, where extreme rationalism takes a dark turn. Discover how seemingly harmless ideas morphed into radical beliefs that endorse violence and absolute veganism. Explore the unsettling connections between online rationalist communities and real-world actions, including protests and assaults. Unpack chilling stories of murder, psychological harm, and the dangerous intersection of AI fears with extremist ideology. It’s a wild ride through the madness of belief and the human psyche!

02:45:59

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INSIGHT

When Rationalism Becomes Mythic

Rationalist communities pushed extreme technocratic solutions that blurred fiction and reality for some members.
That fusion made apocalyptic AI narratives emotionally convincing and actionable to vulnerable people.

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INSIGHT

Fanfiction As Rationalist Text

Eliezer Yudkowsky and HPMOR catalyzed rationalist thinking by turning fiction into reasoning practice.
That pedagogical fiction normalized treating thought experiments as operational directives.

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INSIGHT

Info Hazards Create Real Harms

Info hazards like Roko's Basilisk spread intense existential pressure through internet communities.
That pressure fractured mental health and made some take extreme precautionary and immoral steps.

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What Is Rationalism and How Can It Become Extremist

01:04 • 25min

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From Online Rationalists to Real-World Communities

Extremes of Rational Parenting and Behaviorism

38:57 • 2min

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Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality's Influence

40:40 • 1min

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Eliezer Yudkowsky and the Rise of LessWrong and MIRI

41:53 • 11min

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Roko's Basilisk and Info Hazards

Introducing Key Players: Milo, Max, and the Rationalist Youth

01:03:38 • 6min

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Max and Milo's Online Relationship and Radicalization

01:09:41 • 18min

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Who Is Ziz Lasota and the Tugboat Years

01:27:51 • 4min

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Ziz's Violent Writings and Extremist Beliefs

01:32:21 • 10min

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Escalation: Protests, Arrests, and Group Fragmentation

01:42:20 • 9min

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The Vallejo Attack: Landlord Assault and Consequences

01:50:57 • 6min

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Mysterious Murders: Jamie Zyko's Parents

01:57:08 • 3min

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Group's Migration, New Members, and North Carolina Safe House

02:00:32 • 36sec

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Max, Milo, and Radical Plans: Waterboarding and Simulation Utopias

02:01:08 • 6min

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Violence Peaks: Curtis Murder and Vermont Shootout

02:06:58 • 14min

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Arrests, Trials, and Legal Aftermath

02:20:39 • 9min

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Why Rationalism Failed These People

02:29:41 • 5min

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Top Takeaways from the Zizians Saga

Listener Feedback, Corrections, and Host Reflections

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Romeo and Juliet, written by William Shakespeare, is a tragic play that tells the story of two young lovers, Romeo Montague and Juliet Capulet, who fall in love despite the long-standing feud between their families. The play explores themes of love, hate, fate, and the destructive nature of the families' vendetta. After secretly marrying, the lovers face numerous challenges, including the death of Romeo's friend Mercutio and his subsequent banishment. A failed plan to reunite the lovers leads to their tragic deaths, ultimately bringing peace between their families. The play is renowned for its poetic language, passionate romance, and violent conflict, making it one of the world's most beloved and enduring stories.

Do you believe that all non-vegans should die? In part for their needless murder of senseless people like.... cows? And in part because their predatory, cruel, EVIL behavior is providing a model for a future AI program to treat humans like a mindless food source once it inevitably takes over the world? If so... you'd make a good Zizian! This is a weird one.

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