Product Momentum Podcast 173 / John Cutler: Product Managers as Game Designers – Shifting the Workplace Mindset
John Cutler is Head of Product at Dotwork – a startup dedicated to transforming how teams collaborate and manage product development. He is also a prolific writer, including his wildly popular newsletter, The Beautiful Mess. John’s prior roles include supporting product teams at Toast as Senior Director, Product Enablement and Product Evangelist and Coach at Amplitude.
In today’s episode of Product Momentum, John joins Sean and Dan for an in-person conversation recorded at INDUSTRY, The Product Conference back in September. We caught up with John in between his day 2 keynote and re-entry into “startup survival mode.” During our chat, John reflects on organizational realities and ways of working, the notion of product people as game designers, and how that mindset highlights the importance of fun and dynamism in the workplace.
Here’s what we learned:
Organizational Realities and Ways of Working
A deep chasm lies between the way organizations communicate their ways of working and their actual practices, John says, highlighting the multiple realities that coexist within companies.
“I think in any socio-technical system, you tend to see different frames and perspectives,” he adds. “Companies are not rational places. I’ve been doing a lot of research [in this space], and I’ve learned that pirate ships, despite their reputation, are way more organized than your average company. And actually way more democratic too.
“View process and your ways of working as extensions of what you do for your customers,” he continues. It’s a perspective that encourages empathy and a customer-centric approach even in internal ways of working.
The Concept of Product People as Game Designers
During his keynote, John introduced the notion that product managers and their teams are essentially “game designers” responsible for creating engaging, dynamic experiences.
“I like the game design idea because everyone can relate to playing an amazing game and being in the zone with friends,” he offers. “When you experience a great restaurant, that’s service design. Enjoy an amazing vacation? That’s experience design. Ultimately, it’s not super-complex; people can relate.”
Applying this mindset to product development and team dynamics can make work more enjoyable and effective.
Importance of Fun and Engagement at Work
During the conversation, Sean suggests that “roughly 90% of the people you work with – if they could make the same salary doing something else – would actually do that something else.” The statement highlights the critical role of having fun and being engaged in your work that often makes the difference. John goes on to distinguish genuine engagement and dynamic work environments from the many superficial initiatives he often sees.
“I’m trying to decouple the sort of ‘corporate engagement industry’ from occasions where people find themselves ‘in the zone,’ a state of flow that goes beyond fun into a sort of dynamism in their environment.
Our conversation with John Cutler is the first of five that the team recorded at INDUSTRY: The Product Conference, on September 9-10. We’ll publish the additional in-person episodes over the next several weeks, including chats with Sahil Jain, Axel Sooriah, Shensi Ding, and Michelle Parsons. Great insights from outstanding product leaders!
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