Episode 2494: Samuel George on US-Chinese rivalry for the world's most critical minerals

In late February in DC, I attended the US premiere of the Bertelsmann Foundation of North America produced documentary “Lithium Rising”, a movie about the extraction of essential rare minerals like lithium, nickel and cobalt. Afterwards, I moderated a panel featuring the movie’s director Samuel George, the Biden US Department of Energy Director Giulia Siccardo and Environmental Lawyer JingJing Zhang (the "Erin Brockovich of China"). In post Liberation Day America, of course, the issues addressed in both “Lithium Rising” and our panel discussion - particularly US-Chinese economic rivalry over these essential rare minerals - are even more relevant. Tariffs or not, George’s important new movie uncovers the essential economic and moral rules of today’s rechargeable battery age.

FIVE TAKEAWAYS

* China dominates the critical minerals supply chain, particularly in refining lithium, cobalt, and nickel - creating a significant vulnerability for the United States and Western countries who rely on these minerals for everything from consumer electronics to military equipment.

* Resource extraction creates complex moral dilemmas in communities like those in Nevada, Bolivia, Congo, and Chile, where mining offers economic opportunities but also threatens environment and sacred lands, often dividing local populations.

* History appears to be repeating itself with China's approach in Africa mirroring aspects of 19th century European colonialism, building infrastructure that primarily serves to extract resources while local communities remain impoverished.

* Battery recycling offers a potential "silver lining" but faces two major challenges: making the process cost-effective compared to new mining, and accumulating enough recycled materials to create a closed-loop system, which could take decades.

* The geopolitical competition for these minerals is intensifying, with tariffs and trade wars affecting global supply chains and the livelihoods of workers throughout the system, from miners to manufacturers.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Andrew Keen: Hello, everybody. Last year, we did a show on a new book. It was a new book back then called Cobalt Red about the role of cobalt, the mineral in the Congo. We also did a show. The author of the Cobalt Red book is Siddharth Kara, and it won a number of awards. It's the finalist for the Pulitzer Prize. We also did a show with Ernest Scheyder, who authored a book, The War Below, Lithium, Copper, and the Global Battle to Power Our Lives. Lithium and cobalt are indeed becoming the critical minerals of our networked age. We've done two books on it, and a couple of months ago, I went to the premiere, a wonderful new film, a nonfiction documentary by my guest Samuel George. He has a new movie out called Lithium Rising and I moderated a panel in Washington DC and I'm thrilled that Samuel George is joining us now. He works with the Bertelsmann Foundation of North America and it's a Bertelsman funded enterprise. Sam, congratulations on the movie. It's quite an achievement. I know you traveled all over the world. You went to Europe, Latin America, a lot of remarkable footage also from Africa. How would you compare the business of writing a book like Cobalt read or the war below about lithium and cobalt and the challenges and opportunities of doing a movie like lithium rising what are the particular challenges for a movie director like yourself.

Samuel George: Yeah, Andrew. Well, first of all, I just want to thank you for having me on the program. I appreciate that. And you're right. It is a very different skill set that's required. It's a different set of challenges and also a different set of opportunities. I mean, the beauty of writing, which is something I get a chance to do as well. And I should say we actually do have a long paper coming out of this process that I wrote that will probably be coming out in the next couple months. But the beauty of writing is you need to kind of understand your topic, and if you can really understand your topics, you have the opportunity to explain it. When it comes to filming, if the camera doesn't have it, you don't have it. You might have a sense of something, people might explain things to you in a certain way, but if you don't have it on your camera in a way that's digestible and easy for audience to grasp, it doesn't matter whether you personally understand it or not. So the challenge is really, okay, maybe you understand the issue, but how do you show it? How do you bring your audience to that front line? Because that's the opportunity that you have that you don't necessarily have when you write. And that's to take an audience literally to these remote locations that they've never been and plant their feet right in the ground, whether that be the Atacama in Northern Chile, whether that'd be the red earth of Colwaisy in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. And that's the beauty of it, but it takes more of making sure you get something not just whether you understand it is almost irrelevant. I mean I guess you do need to understand it but you need to be able to draw it out of a place. It's easier when you're writing to get to some of these difficult places because you don't have to bring 900 pounds of equipment and you can kind of move easier and you're much more discreet. You can get places much easier as you can imagine, where with this, you're carrying all this equipment down. You're obvious from miles away. So you really have to build relationships and get people to get comfortable with you and be willing to speak out. So it's different arts, but it's also different rewards. And the beauty of being able to combine analysis with these visuals is really the draw of what makes documentary so magic because you're really kind of hitting different senses at the same time, visual, audio, and combining it to hopefully make some sort of bigger story.

Andrew Keen: Well, speaking, Sam, of audio and visuals, we've got a one minute clip or introduction to the movie. People just listening on this podcast won't get to see your excellent film work, but everybody else will. So let's just have a minute to see what lithium rising is all about. We'll be back in a minute.

[Clip plays]

Andrew Keen: Here's a saying that says that the natural resources are today's bread and tomorrow's hunger. Great stuff, Sam. That last quote was in Spanish. Maybe you want to translate that to English, because I think, in a sense, it summarizes what lithium rising is about.

Samuel George: Right. Well, that's this idea that natural resources in a lot of these places, I mean, you have to take a step back that a lot of these resources, you mentioned the lithium, the cobalt, you can throw nickel into that conversation. And then some of the more traditional ones like copper and silver, a lot are in poor countries. And for centuries, the opportunity to access this has been like a mirage, dangled in front of many of these poor countries as an opportunity to become more wealthy. Yet what we continue to see is the wealth, the mineral wealth of these countries is sustaining growth around the world while places like Potosí and Bolivia remain remarkably poor. So the question on their minds is, is this time gonna be any different? We know that Bolivia has perhaps the largest lithium deposits in the world. They're struggling to get to it because they're fighting amongst each other politically about what's the best way to do it, and is there any way to it that, hey, for once, maybe some of this resource wealth can stay here so that we don't end up, as the quote said, starving. So that's where their perspective is. And then on the other side, you have the great powers of the world who are engaged in a massive competition for access to these minerals.

Andrew Keen: And let's be specific, Sam, we're not talking about 19th century Europe and great powers where there were four or five, they're really only two great powers when it comes to these resources, aren't they?

Samuel George: I mean, I think that's fair to say. I think some people might like to lump in Western Europe and the EU with the United States to the extent that we used to traditionally conceive of them as being on the same team. But certainly, yes, this is a competition between the United States and China. And it's one that, frankly, China is winning and winning handily. And we can debate what that means, but it's true. I showed this film in London. And a student, who I believe was Chinese, commented, is it really fair to even call this a race? Because it seems to be over.

Andrew Keen: Yeah, it's over. You showed it at King's College in London. I heard it was an excellent event.

Samuel George: Yeah, it really was. But the point here is, to the extent that it's a competition between the United States and China, which it is, China is winning. And that's of grave concern to Washington. So there's the sense that the United States needs to catch up and need to catch up quickly. So that's the perspective that these two great powers are going at it from. Whereas if you're the Democratic Republic of Congo, if you are Bolivia, if your Chile, you're saying, what can we do to try to make the most of this opportunity and not just get steamrolled?

Andrew Keen: Right. And you talk about a grave concern. Of course, there is grave concern both in Washington, D.C. and Beijing in terms of who's winning this race for these natural resources that are driving our networked age, our battery powered age. Some people might think the race has ended. Some people may even argue that it hasn't even really begun. But of course, one of the biggest issues, and particularly when it comes to the Chinese, is this neocolonial element. This was certainly brought out in Cobalt Red, which is quite a controversial book about the way in which China has essentially colonized the Congo by mining Cobalt in Congo, using local labor and then shipping out these valuable resources back to China. And of course, it's part of a broader project in Africa of the Chinese, which for some critics actually not that different from European 19th century colonialism. That's why we entitled our show with Siddharth Kara, The New Heart of Darkness. Of course, the original Heart of darkness was Joseph Conrad's great novel that got turned into Apocalypse Now. Is history repeating itself, Sam, when it comes to these natural resources in terms of the 19th-century history of colonialism, particularly in Africa?

Samuel George: Yeah, I mean, I think it's so one thing that's fair to say is you hear a lot of complaining from the West that says, well, look, standards are not being respected, labor is being taken advantage of, environment is not being taken care of, and this is unfair. And this is true, but your point is equally true that this should not be a foreign concept to the West because it's something that previously the West was clearly engaged in. And so yes, there is echoes of history repeating itself. I don't think there's any other way to look at it. I think it's a complicated dynamic because sometimes people say, well, why is the West not? Why is it not the United States that's in the DRC and getting the cobalt? And I think that's because it's been tough for the United states to find its footing. What China has done is increasingly, and then we did another documentary about this. It's online. It's called Tinder Box Belt and Road, China and the Balkans. And what we increasingly see is in these non-democracies or faulty democracies that has something that China's interested in. China's willing to show up and basically put a lot of money on the table and not ask a whole lot of questions. And if the West, doesn't wanna play that game, whatever they're offering isn't necessarily as attractive. And that's a complication that we see again and again around the world and one, the United States and Europe and the World Bank and Western institutions that often require a lot of background study and open tenders for contracts and democracy caveats and transparency. China's not asking for any of that, as David Dollar, a scholar, said in the prior film, if the World Bank says they're going to build you a road, it's going to be a 10-year process, and we'll see what happens. If China says they'll build you a road a year later, you'll have a road.

Andrew Keen: But then the question sound becomes, who owns the road?

Samuel George: So let's take the Democratic Republic of the Congo, another great option. China has been building a lot of roads there, and this is obviously beneficial to a country that has very limited infrastructure. It's not just to say everything that China is doing is bad. China is a very large and economically powerful country. It should be contributing to global infrastructure. If it has the ability to finance that, wonderful. We all know Africa, certain African countries can really benefit from improved infrastructure. But where do those roads go? Well, those roads just happen to conveniently connect to these key mineral deposits where China overwhelmingly owns the interest and the minerals.

Andrew Keen: That's a bit of a coincidence, isn't it?

Samuel George: Well, exactly. And I mean, that's the way it's going. So that's what they'll come to the table. They'll put money on the table, they'll say, we'll get you a road. And, you know, what a coincidence that roads going right by the cobalt mine run by China. That's debatable. If you're from the African perspective, you could say, look, we got a road, and we needed that road. And it could also be that there's a lot of money disappearing in other places. But, you know that that's a different question.

Andrew Keen: One of the things I liked about Lithium Rising, the race for critical minerals, your new documentary, is it doesn't pull its punches. Certainly not when it comes to the Chinese. You have some remarkable footage from Africa, but also it doesn't pull its punches in Latin America, or indeed in the United States itself, where cobalt has been discovered and it's the indigenous peoples of some of the regions where cobalt, sorry, where lithium has been discovered, where the African versus Chinese scenario is being played out. So whether it's Bolivia or the western parts of the United States or Congo, the script is pretty similar, isn't it?

Samuel George: Yeah, you certainly see themes in the film echoed repeatedly. You mentioned what was the Thacker Pass lithium mine that's being built in northern Nevada. So people say, look, we need lithium. The United States needs lithium. Here's the interesting thing about critical minerals. These are not rare earth minerals. They're actually not that rare. They're in a lot of places and it turns out there's a massive lithium deposit in Nevada. Unfortunately, it's right next to a Native American reservation. This is an area that this tribe has been kind of herded onto after years, centuries of oppression. But the way the documentary tries to investigate it, it is not a clear-cut story of good guy and bad guy, rather it's a very complicated situation, and in that specific case what you have is a tribe that's divided, because there's some people that say, look, this is our land, this is a sacred site, and this is going to be pollution, but then you have a whole other section of the tribe that says we are very poor and this is an opportunity for jobs such that we won't have to leave our area, that we can stay here and work. And these kind of entangled complications we see repeated over and over again. Cobalt is another great example. So there's some people out there that are saying, well, we can make a battery without cobalt. And that's not because they can make a better battery. It's because they want to avoid the Democratic Republic of the Congo. But that cobalt is providing a rare job opportunity. And we can debate the quality of the job, but for the people that are working it, as they say in my film, they say, look, if we could do something else, we would do it. But this is all there is. So if you deprive them of that, the situation gets even worse. And that something we see in Northern Chile. We see it in Nevada. We see in Africa. We see it in Indonesia. What the film does is it raises these moral questions that are incredibly important to talk about. And it sort of begs the question of, not only what's the answer, but who has the right to answer this? I mean, who has right to speak on behalf of the 10 communities that are being destroyed in Northern Chile?

Andrew Keen: I have to admit, I thought you did a very good job in the film giving everybody a voice, but my sympathy when it came to the Nevada case was with the younger people who wanted to bring wealth and development into the community rather than some of the more elderly members who were somehow anti-development, anti-investment, anti mining in every sense. I don't see how that benefits, but certainly not their children or the children of their children.

Samuel George: I guess the fundamental question there is how bad is that mine going to be for the local environment? And I think that's something that remains to be seen. And one of the major challenges with this broader idea of are we going to greener by transitioning to EVs? And please understand I don't have an opinion of that. I do think anywhere you're doing mining, you're going to have immediate consequences. The transition would have to get big enough that the external the externalities, the positive benefits outweigh that kind of local negativity. And we could get there, but it's also very difficult to imagine massive mining projects anywhere in the world that don't impact the local population. And again, when we pick up our iPhone or when we get in our electric vehicle, we're not necessarily thinking of those 10 villages in the Atacama Desert in Chile.

Andrew Keen: Yeah, and I've been up to the Atacama's, perhaps the most beautiful part in the world I've ever seen. It's nice. I saw the tourist side of it, so I didn't see the mining. But I take your point. There is one, perhaps, the most positive section of the film. You went to France. I think it was Calais, you took your camera. And it seems as if the French are pioneering a more innovative development of batteries which benefit the local community but also protect them environmentally. What did you see in northern France?

Samuel George: Point, and that gets back to this extractive cycle that we've seen before. Okay, so northern France, this is a story a lot of us will know well because it's similar to what we've see in the Rust Belt in the United States. This is an industrial zone, historically, that faced significant deindustrialization in recent decades and now has massive problems with unemployment and lack of job opportunities, as one of the guys says in the film. Nothing's open here anymore except for that cafe over there and that's just because it has gambling guy. I couldn't have said it any better. This EV transition is offering an opportunity to bring back industrial jobs to whether it's Northern France or the United States of America. So that is an opportunity for people to have these more advanced battery-oriented jobs. So that could be building the battery itself. That could be an auto manufacturing plant where you're making EV electric vehicles. So there is job creation that's happening. And that's further along the development stage and kind of higher level jobs. And we meet students in France that are saying, look, this is an opportunity for a career. We see a long-term opportunity for work here. So we're really studying batteries and that's for university students. That's for people maybe 10, 15 years older to kind of go back to school and learn some skills related to batteries. So there is job creation to that. And you might, you may be getting ready to get to this, but where the real silver lining I think comes after that, where we go back to Georgia in the United States and visit a battery recycling plant.

Andrew Keen: Right, yeah, those two sections in the movie kind of go together in a sense.

Samuel George: Right, they do. And that is, I think, the silver lining here is that these batteries that we use in all of these appliances and devices and gadgets can be recycled in such a way that the cobalt, the lithium, the nickel can be extracted. And it itself hasn't degraded. It's sort of funny for us to think about, because we buy a phone. And three years later, the battery is half as good as it used to be and we figure well, materials in it must be degrading. They're not. The battery is degrading, the materials are fine. So then the idea is if we can get enough of this in the United States, if we can get old phones and old car batteries and old laptops that we can pull those minerals out, maybe we can have a closed loop, which is sort of a way of saying we won't need those mines anymore. We won't have to dig it up. We don't need to compete with China for access to from Bolivia or Chile because we'll have that lithium here. And yes, that's a silver lining, but there's challenges there. The two key challenges your viewers should be aware of is one, it's all about costs and they've proven that they can recycle these materials, but can they do it in a way that's cheaper than importing new lithium? And that's what these different companies are racing to find a way to say, look, we can do this at a way that's cost effective. Then even if you get through that challenge, a second one is just to have the sheer amount of the materials to close that loop, to have enough in the United States already, they estimate we're decades away from that. So those are the two key challenges to the silver lining of recycling, but it is possible. It can be done and they're doing it.

Andrew Keen: We haven't talked about the T word, Sam. It's on everyone's lips these days, tariffs. How does this play out? I mean, especially given this growing explicit, aggressive trade war between the United States and China, particularly when it comes to production of iPhones and other battery-driven products. Right. Is tariffs, I mean, you film this really before Trump 2-0, in which tariffs were less central, but is tariffs going to change everything?

Samuel George: I mean, this is just like so many other things, an incredibly globalized ecosystem and tariffs. And who even knows by the time this comes out, whatever we think we understand about the new tariff scenario could be completely outdated.

Andrew Keen: Guaranteed. I mean, we are talking on Wednesday, April the 9th. This will go out in a few days time. But no doubt by that time, tariffs will have changed dramatically. They already have as we speak.

Samuel George: Here's the bottom line, and this is part of the reason the story is so important and so timely, and we haven't even talked about this yet, but it's so critical. Okay, just like oil, you can't just dig oil out of the ground and put it in the car. It's got to be refined. Lithium, nickel, cobalt, it's got be refined as well. And the overwhelming majority of that refining occurs in China. So even your success story like France, where they're building batteries, they still need to import the refined critical minerals from China. So that is a massive vulnerability. And that's part of where this real fear that you see in Washington or Brussels is coming from. You know, and they got their first little taste of it during the COVID supply chain meltdown, but say in the event where China decided that they weren't gonna export any more of this refined material it would be disastrous for people relying on lithium devices, which by the way, is also the military. Increasingly, the military is using lithium battery powered devices. So that's why there's this urgency that we need to get this on shore. We need to this supply chain here. The problem is that's not happening yet. And okay, so you can slap these tariffs on and that's going to make this stuff much more expensive, but that's not going to automatically create a critical mineral refining capacity in the United States of America. So that needs to be built. So you can understand the desire to get this back here. And by the way, the only reason we're not all driving Chinese made electric vehicles is because of tariffs. The Chinese have really, really caught up in terms of high quality electric vehicles at excellent prices. Now, the prices were always good. What's surprising people recently is the quality is there, but they've basically been tariffed out of the United States. And actually the Biden administration was in part behind that. And it was sort of this tension because on the one hand, they were saying, we want a green revolution, we want to green revolution. But on the other hand, they were seeing these quality Chinese electric vehicles. We're not gonna let you bring them in. But yeah, so I mean, I think the ultimate goal, you can understand why a country that's convinced that it's in a long term competition with China would say we can't rely on Chinese refined materials. Slapping a tariff on it isn't any sort of comprehensive strategy and to me it almost seems like you're putting the horse before the cart because we're not really in a place yet where we can say we no longer need China to power our iPhone.

Andrew Keen: And one of the nice things about your movie is it features miners, ordinary people living on the land whose lives are dramatically impacted by this. So one would imagine that some of the people you interviewed in Bolivia or Atacama or in Africa or even in Georgia and certainly in Nevada, they're going to be dramatically impacted by the tariffs. These are not just abstract ideas that have a real impact on people's lives.

Samuel George: Absolutely. I mean, for decades now, we've built an economic system that's based on globalization. And it's certainly true that that's cost a lot of jobs in the United States. It's also true that there's a lot jobs and companies that have been built around global trade. And this is one of them. And you're talking about significant disruption if your global supply chains, as we've seen before, again, in the COVID crisis when the supply chains fall apart or when the margins, which are already pretty slim to begin with, start to degrade, yeah, it's a major problem.

Andrew Keen: Poorly paid in the first place, so...

Samuel George: For the most part, yeah.

Andrew Keen: Well, we're not talking about dinging Elon Musk. Tell us a little bit, Sam, about how you made this movie. You are a defiantly independent filmmaker, one of the more impressive that I know. You literally carry two large cameras around the world. You don't have a team, you don't have an audio guy, you don't ever sound guy. You do it all on your own. It's quite impressive. Been you shlep these cameras to Latin America, to Southeast Asia, obviously all around America. You commissioned work in Africa. How did you make this film? It's quite an impressive endeavor.

Samuel George: Well, first of all, I really appreciate your kind words, but I can't completely accept this idea that I do it all alone. You know, I'm speaking to you now from the Bertelsmann Foundation. I'm the director of Bertelsman Foundation documentaries. And we've just had this fantastic support here and this idea that we can go to the front line and get these stories. And I would encourage people to check out Bertelsmen Foundation documentation.

Andrew Keen: And we should have a special shout out to your boss, my friend, Irene Brahm, who runs the BuzzFeed Foundation of North America, who's been right from the beginning, a champion of video making.

Samuel George: Oh, absolutely. I mean, Irene Brahm has been a visionary in terms of, you know, something I think that we align on is you take these incredibly interesting issues and somehow analysts manage to make them extraordinarily boring. And Irene had this vision that maybe it doesn't have to be that way.

Andrew Keen: She's blushing now as she's watching this, but I don't mean to make you blush, Sam, but these are pretty independent movies. You went around the world, you've done it before, you did it in the Serbian movie too. You're carrying these cameras around, you're doing all your own work, it's quite an achievement.

Samuel George: Well, again, I'm very, very thankful for the Bertelsmann Foundation. I think a lot of times, sometimes people, when they hear a foundation or something is behind something, they assume that somebody's got an ax to grind, and that's really not the case here. The Bertelsman Foundation is very supportive of just investigating these key issues, and let's have an honest conversation about it. And maybe it's a cop-out, but in my work, I often don't try to provide a solution.

Andrew Keen: Have you had, when we did our event in D.C., you had a woman, a Chinese-born woman who's an expert on this. I don't think she's particularly welcome back on the mainland now. Has there been a Chinese response? Because I would say it's an anti-Chinese movie, but it's not particularly sympathetic or friendly towards China.

Samuel George: And I can answer that question because it was the exact same issue we ran into when we filmed Tinder Box Belt and Road, which was again about Chinese investment in the Balkans. And your answer is has there been a Chinese reaction and no sort of official reaction. We always have people sort of from the embassy or various affiliated organizations that like to come to the events when we screen it. And they're very welcome to. But here's a point that I want to get across. Chinese officials and people related to China on these issues are generally uniformly unwilling to participate. And I think that's a poor decision on their part because I think there's a lot they could say to defend themselves. They could say, hey, you guys do this too. They could say, we're providing infrastructure to critical parts of the world. They could said, hey we're way ahead of you guys, but it's not because we did anything wrong. We just saw this was important before you did and built the network. There are many ways they could defend themselves. But rather than do that, they're extremely tight-lipped about what they're doing. And that can, if you're not, and we try our best, you know, we have certain experts from China that when they'll talk, we'll interview them. But that kind of tight-lip approach almost makes it seem like something even more suspicious is happening. Cause you just have to guess what the mindset must be cause they won't explain themselves. And I think Chinese representatives could do far more and it's not just about you know my documentary I understand they have bigger fish to fry but I feel like they fry the fish the same way when they're dealing with bigger entities I think it's to their detriment that they're not more open in engaging a global conversation because look China is gonna be an incredibly impactful part of world dynamics moving forward and they need to be, they need to engage on what they're doing. I think, and I do think they have a story they can tell to defend themselves, and it's unfortunate that they very much don't do it.

Andrew Keen: In our DC event, you also had a woman who'd worked within the Biden administration. Has there been a big shift between Biden policy on recycling, recyclable energy and Trump 2.0? It's still the early days of the new administration.

Samuel George: Right. And we're trying to get a grip on that of what the difference is going to be. I can tell you this, the Biden approach was very much the historic approach of the United States of America, which is to try to go to a country like Congo and say, look, we're not going to give you money without transparency. We're not gonna give you this big, you know, beautiful deal. We're going to the cheapest to build this or the cheapest build that. But what we can compete with you is on quality and sustainability and improved work conditions. This used to be the United States pitch. And as we've seen in places like Serbia, that's not always the greatest pitch in the world. Oftentimes these countries are more interested in the money without questions being asked. But the United states under the Biden administration tried to compete on quality. Now we will have to see if that continues with the Trump administration, if that continuous to be their pitch. What we've see in the early days is this sort of hardball tactic. I mean, what else can you refer to what's happening with Ukraine, where they say, look, if you want continued military support, we want those minerals. And other countries say, well, maybe that could work for us too. I mean that's sort of, as I understand it, the DRC, which is under, you know, there's new competition there for power that the existing government is saying, hey, United States, if you could please help us, we'll be sure to give you this heaping of minerals. We can say this, the new administration does seem to be taking the need for critical minerals seriously, which I think was an open question because we see so much of the kind of green environmentalism being rolled back. It does still seem to be a priority with the new administration and there does seem to be clarity that the United States is going to have to improve its position regarding these minerals.

Andrew Keen: Yeah, I'm guessing Elon Musk sees this as well as anyone, and I'm sure he's quite influential. Finally, Sam, in contrast with a book, which gets distributed and put in bookstores, doing a movie is much more challenging. What's the goal with the movie? You've done a number of launches around the world, screenings in Berlin, Munich, London, Washington D.C. you did run in San Francisco last week. What's the business model, so to speak here? Are you trying to get distribution or do you wanna work with schools or other authorities to show the film?

Samuel George: Right, I mean, I appreciate that question. The business model is simple. We just want you to watch. You know, our content is always free. Our films are always free, you can go to bfnadox.org for our catalog. This film is not online yet. You don't need a password, you don't a username, you can just watch our movies, that's what we want. And of course, we're always on the lookout for increased opportunities to spread these. And so we worked on a number of films. We've got PBS to syndicate them nationally. We got one you can check your local listings about a four-month steel workers strike in western Pennsylvania. It's called Local 1196. That just started its national syndication on PBS. So check out for that one. But look, our goal is for folks to watch these. We're looking for the most exposure as we can and we're giving it away for free.

Andrew Keen: Just to repeat, if people are interested, that's bfna.docs.org to find more movies. And finally, Sam, for people who are interested perhaps in doing a showing of the film, I know you've worked with a number of universities and interest groups. What would be the best way to approach you.

Samuel George: Well, like you say, we're a small team here. You can always feel free to reach out to me. And I don't know if I should pitch my email.

Andrew Keen: Yeah, picture email. Give it out. The Chinese will be getting it too. You'll be getting lots of invitations from China probably to show the film.

Samuel George: We'd love to come talk about it. That's all we want to do. And we try, but we'd love to talk about it. I think it's fundamental to have that conversation. So the email is just Samuel.George, just as you see it written there, at BFN as in boy, F as in Frank, N as in Nancy, A. Let's make it clearer - Samuel.George@bfna.org. We work with all sorts of organizations on screenings.

Andrew Keen: And what about the aspiring filmmakers, as you're the head of documentaries there? Do you work with aspiring documentary filmmakers?

Samuel George: Yes, yes, we do often on projects. So if I'm working on a project. So you mentioned that I work by myself, and that is how I learned this industry, you know, is doing it by myself. But increasingly, we're bringing in other skilled people on projects that we're working on. So we don't necessarily outsource entire projects. But we're always looking for opportunities to collaborate. We're looking to bring in talent. And we're looking to make the best products we can on issues that we think are fundamental importance to the Atlantic community. So we love being in touch with filmmakers. We have internship programs. We're open for nonprofit business, I guess you could say.

Andrew Keen: Well, that's good stuff. The new movie is called Lithium Rising, The Race for Critical Minerals. I moderated a panel after the North American premiere at the end of February. It's a really interesting, beautifully made film, very compelling. It is only 60 minutes. I strongly advise anyone who has the opportunity to watch it and to contact Sam if they want to put it on their school, a university or other institution. Congratulations Sam on the movie. What's the next project?

Samuel George: Next project, we've started working on a project about Southern Louisiana. And in there, we're really looking at the impact of land loss on the bayous and the local shrimpers and crabbers and Cajun community, as well as of course

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