The Nonlinear Library: LessWrong LW - Childhood and Education Roundup #6: College Edition by Zvi
Jun 28, 2024
36:59
Link to original article
Welcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: Childhood and Education Roundup #6: College Edition, published by Zvi on June 28, 2024 on LessWrong.
Childhood roundup #5 excluded all developments around college. So this time around is all about issues related to college or graduate school, including admissions.
Tuition and Costs
What went wrong with federal student loans? Exactly what you would expect when you don't check who is a good credit risk. From a performance perspective, the federal government offered loans to often-unqualified students to attend poor-performing, low-value institutions. Those students then did not earn much and were often unable to repay the loans. The students are victims here too, as we told them to do it.
Alas, none of the proposed student loan solutions involve fixing the underlying issue. If you said 'we are sorry we pushed these loans on students and rewarded programs and institutions that do not deserve it, and we are going to stop giving loans for those programs and institutions and offer help to the suffering former students, ideally passing some of those costs on to the institutions' then I would understand that.
Instead, our programs are moving dollars mostly to relatively rich people who can afford to pay, and by offering forgiveness we are making the underlying problems far worse rather than better. Completely unacceptable even if it were constitutional.
Colorado governor Jared Polis, who really ought to know better, signs bipartisan bill to make first two years of college free for students whose family income is under $90k/year at in-state public schools. Technically this is 65 credits not counting AP/IB, concurrent enrollment, military credit or credit for prior learning, so there is even more incentive to get such credits.
The good news is they do have a full cliff, this falls off as you approach $90k, so they dodged the full version of quit-your-job insanity. The obvious bad news is that this is effectively one hell of a tax increase.
The less obvious bad news is this is setting up a huge disaster. Think about what the student who actually needs this help will do. They will go to a local college for two years for free. If they do well, they'll get to 65 credits.
Then the state will say 'oops, time to pay tuition.' And what happens now? Quite a lot of them will choose to, or be forced to, leave college and get a job.
This is a disaster for everyone. The benefits of college mostly accrue to those who finish. At least roughly 25% of your wage premium is the pure Sheepskin Effect for getting your degree. If you aren't going to finish and were a marginal student to begin with (hence the not finishing), you are better off not going, even for free.
I do not think we should be in the business of providing universal free college. There are real costs involved, including the negative externalities involved in accelerating credentialism. However, if we do want to make this offer to help people not drown, we need to at least not stop it halfway across the stream.
What Your Tuition Buys You
The real life version of the college where there degree students who pay for a degree but aren't allowed to come to class versus the non-degree students who get no degree but are educated for free. To be clear, this is totally awesome.
David Weekly: This seems kinda…radical? ASU makes its courses available to anyone for $25/course. After you take the class, if you want the grade you got added to an official transcript with a credit you can use, +$400. These are real college credits. 8 year olds are getting college credits!
Emmett Shear: This is cool to me because you can see the core of university economics right there. Bundling $25 worth of education with $400 of credentialist gatekeeping. I'm not blaming ASU, it's cool they're doing this, but that is deeply broken.
Sudowoodo: Totally understand y...
Welcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: Childhood and Education Roundup #6: College Edition, published by Zvi on June 28, 2024 on LessWrong.
Childhood roundup #5 excluded all developments around college. So this time around is all about issues related to college or graduate school, including admissions.
Tuition and Costs
What went wrong with federal student loans? Exactly what you would expect when you don't check who is a good credit risk. From a performance perspective, the federal government offered loans to often-unqualified students to attend poor-performing, low-value institutions. Those students then did not earn much and were often unable to repay the loans. The students are victims here too, as we told them to do it.
Alas, none of the proposed student loan solutions involve fixing the underlying issue. If you said 'we are sorry we pushed these loans on students and rewarded programs and institutions that do not deserve it, and we are going to stop giving loans for those programs and institutions and offer help to the suffering former students, ideally passing some of those costs on to the institutions' then I would understand that.
Instead, our programs are moving dollars mostly to relatively rich people who can afford to pay, and by offering forgiveness we are making the underlying problems far worse rather than better. Completely unacceptable even if it were constitutional.
Colorado governor Jared Polis, who really ought to know better, signs bipartisan bill to make first two years of college free for students whose family income is under $90k/year at in-state public schools. Technically this is 65 credits not counting AP/IB, concurrent enrollment, military credit or credit for prior learning, so there is even more incentive to get such credits.
The good news is they do have a full cliff, this falls off as you approach $90k, so they dodged the full version of quit-your-job insanity. The obvious bad news is that this is effectively one hell of a tax increase.
The less obvious bad news is this is setting up a huge disaster. Think about what the student who actually needs this help will do. They will go to a local college for two years for free. If they do well, they'll get to 65 credits.
Then the state will say 'oops, time to pay tuition.' And what happens now? Quite a lot of them will choose to, or be forced to, leave college and get a job.
This is a disaster for everyone. The benefits of college mostly accrue to those who finish. At least roughly 25% of your wage premium is the pure Sheepskin Effect for getting your degree. If you aren't going to finish and were a marginal student to begin with (hence the not finishing), you are better off not going, even for free.
I do not think we should be in the business of providing universal free college. There are real costs involved, including the negative externalities involved in accelerating credentialism. However, if we do want to make this offer to help people not drown, we need to at least not stop it halfway across the stream.
What Your Tuition Buys You
The real life version of the college where there degree students who pay for a degree but aren't allowed to come to class versus the non-degree students who get no degree but are educated for free. To be clear, this is totally awesome.
David Weekly: This seems kinda…radical? ASU makes its courses available to anyone for $25/course. After you take the class, if you want the grade you got added to an official transcript with a credit you can use, +$400. These are real college credits. 8 year olds are getting college credits!
Emmett Shear: This is cool to me because you can see the core of university economics right there. Bundling $25 worth of education with $400 of credentialist gatekeeping. I'm not blaming ASU, it's cool they're doing this, but that is deeply broken.
Sudowoodo: Totally understand y...