History Unplugged Podcast

Don’t Use Rome as a Model of Why Societies Collapse; Use Crime Syndicates and Somalia Instead

Oct 2, 2025
In this discussion, Luke Kemp, a researcher at Cambridge specializing in societal collapse, unveils fascinating insights from his book, Goliath's Curse. He explores how modern societies, akin to ancient Goliaths, are fragile yet powerful. Kemp argues that while collapses can often improve the lives of ordinary people, they pose existential threats today. He delves into the characteristics of democratic vs. dominance hierarchies, the potential severity of modern collapses, and emphasizes the importance of community resilience and inclusivity for weathering future crises.
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ANECDOTE

Cahokia's Rise And Sudden Abandonment

  • Cahokia rose to 10–15,000 people with massive earth mounds and ritual sacrifice revealing an emerging priestly elite.
  • After abandonment, the city left a 'vacant quarter' and few remembered its former dominance.
INSIGHT

Goliaths: Fragile Dominance Structures

  • Goliaths are societies built by binding together political, economic, violent, and informational power into dominance hierarchies.
  • These structures look strong but are intrinsically fragile and contain seeds of their own demise.
INSIGHT

Evolutionary Backslide Into Hierarchy

  • Transitioning from egalitarian hunter-gatherers to ranked states represented an evolutionary backslide into dominance hierarchies.
  • That shift reduced accountability and concentrated reproduction, wealth, and violence among a few.
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