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Politics abhors a vacuum. Without credible explanations for the things that bewilder and exasperate us, people become susceptible to extremist conspiracy theories, hate and lies. So how does truth survive? In her brand new book, "Doppelgänger: A Trip into the Mirror World”, award-winning journalist Naomi Klein, (author of No Logo, The Shock Doctrine, et al), describes being confused with Naomi Wolf, author of The Beauty Myth, as Wolf morphed into a conspiracy-minded anti-vaxxer during the Covid pandemic. In an era of all important "personal brands", Klein became absorbed in the deep fake, double worlds surrounding and sometimes coming to represent her online. Right-wing conspiracies feed off Left-wing silences, she concludes. In this far-ranging interview from her home in British Columbia, Canada, Klein describes listening to hours and hours of conspiracist Steve Bannon's podcasts, and researching doppelgängers in history and literature, in order to uncover why we have shadow selves, and how disinformation and conspiracy theories gain power. Join Laura Flanders for this charming conversation as Naomi Klein challenges us to overcome divide-and-conquer individualism if we are ever to tackle our real-life, systemic crises. And Laura shares a few thoughts on learning from our elders about the pre-digital age.

“[I think that] the pressure we're putting on the self . . . is part of why we're seeing so many people crack. I don't think the self can support the amount that we are putting on it: It's our income. It's our retirement. It's our safety. It's our lifeboat . . . And it's an illusion because we cannot protect ourselves from the forces that we're up against . . . Our only hope of protection is through collective work and collective movement building.” - Naomi Klein

“Very often we think that the solution is deplatforming . . . What I've seen is that it's actually kind of supercharged the movement. People wear it as a badge of honor . . . I am less interested in how we control speech and much more interested in how we drain conspiracy culture of its energy, of its power.” - Naomi Klein

Guest:

Naomi Klein Naomi Klein is the award-winning author of international bestsellers including This Changes Everything, The Shock Doctrine, No Logo, No Is Not Enough, and On Fire, which have been published in more than thirty-five languages. She is an associate professor in the department of geography at the University of British Columbia, the founding co-director of UBC’s Centre for Climate Justice, and an honorary professor of Media and Climate at Rutgers University. Her writing has appeared in leading publications around the world, and she is a columnist for The Guardian.

🔹 Topics Covered:

1️⃣ Disinformation & 'Mirror World Platforms': Why are alternative platforms becoming hotbeds for conspiracy theories? How can we address the spread of disinformation? What happens when conspiracy-minded figures are deplatformed from mainstream social media?

2️⃣ Draining Conspiracy Culture: Why does conspiracy culture hold such allure, and how do we drain conspiracy culture of its power?

3️⃣ The Pressure Cooker of Capitalism: Naomi Klein dives into capitalism and how it encourages us to "optimize" ourselves.

4️⃣ Collective Movement Building: Why collective action, rather than individualistic solutions, is the way forward to solve systemic problems.

5️⃣ Digital Identity Vs Real World: How is our perception of others distorted in the digital realm, and what can we do about it?

6️⃣ The Power of Activism: Discussing real human experiences, activism and community building to transcend the digital divide. 7️⃣ Learning from Our Elders: The importance of engaging with older generations to understand that different lifestyles and systems are not just possible, but have existed.

Full Episode Notes are located HERE. They include related episodes, articles, and more.

Music In the Middle: “Connections” featuring lyrics by Reg E. Gaines and music by Calvin Gaines, courtesy of the artists. And additional music included- "In and Out" and "Steppin" by Podington Bear

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30. Where Do We Go From Here: Chaos or Community?