115: Johannes Schartau and Christiaan Verwijs

Transcript:

Joe Krebs 0:10

Agile FM radio for the Agile community. www agile.fm. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of agile FM. Today I have two guests to Christiaan Verwijs, and Johannes Schartau. They both wrote together with Barry Overeem a book called Zombie Scrum Survival Guide, which was released in November. It was released in November 2020. Why not on Halloween? That would have been the perfect release date for the Zombie Survival Guide on the 31st of October. But you came a few days after that. But first and foremost, welcome to the show. Welcome to Agile FM.

Johannes Schartau 0:55

Thanks for having us Yeah,

Christiaan Verwijs 0:57

thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here.

Johannes Schartau 0:59

I think to answer your first question, we won't name any names, but there was a big publisher involved in our book. And not all publishers are very agile. So that wasn't possible. That was also our goal. But you know, we took what we could. And that was November.

Joe Krebs 1:20

November. Yeah, but just about that timeframe. So it's been a few months. Congratulations for the release. That is part of the professional scrum series that book, I think those are like five, six books or something like that in that series. So that's where we go Barry cannot be with us today on this show. But I will gonna talk a little bit about the survival guide. It hit the shelves, it's available, you're shipping it like crazy. So before we even get started, now that everyone here on on that show might be familiar with that. zombie Scrum, what is that? And why is it bad?

Christiaan Verwijs 1:59

Yeah, well, it's pretty bad right to Hamas. Yeah, well, I think I think there's just some of the old scripting for zombie scrum instead. It's something that looks like scrum from a distance. So you have all the events, the artifacts, the accountabilities that you would expect, but there's no beating heart. And that usually manifests as in a complete lack of working software stakeholders are not involved. There is no, no autonomy for the team to make any decisions of their own about the product that they're working on. And nobody seems to care about it, or try to improve anything. And I think that's sort of the thumbnail description of zombie Scrum.

Joe Krebs 2:41

Right. So what was the trigger for you guys writing it? I mean, what did you guys observe? Are there I mean, you're both training. Christiaan, you're a professional scrum trainer. Johannes you're an Agile coach. So I'm pretty sure you guys see a lot of Scrum out there. When working with clients, and what was the reason what triggered the book and like I said, there's something has to be done.

Johannes Schartau 3:04

Well, several years ago, we talked about what we were seeing in the industry and what we could make some kind of impact. So that's how our collaboration got started. And even with a deep question of what would actually make a difference. And what we both saw, and we later got Barry involved, was that Agile has reached that kind of maturity stage. So when we started out, it was just this weird thing that some people did and would never really catch on. But then suddenly, it did and got really successful. So what we saw though, was that there were all these books on Scrum and Agile, and they were all describing this perfect future and all the benefits you can you could get from Scrum. But most people we talked to, they felt like they were trapped in a system that didn't deliver on that promise, and it felt lifeless to them. And they also felt stuck and not able to change the whole system. So that's kind of what we identified that these people really needed some help. And while everybody was just talking about this, this is how you do it. And this is what it looks like in the perfect world that wasn't really addressing the the issue that people were facing, that this was, this was not the way that was playing out in their environment. Right. And so that we thought it's kind of weird that no one is actually talking about it. Because with our clients every time we mentioned that, and also said, it's not just you it's something we see more often there was this big relief, like Oh, really, that's like, you know, I thought it was just organization, but maybe it's a bigger thing, and other people are also having the same issues. And once we we gave it a name, that's really when it took off. So we were kind of hesitant at first because the metaphor can be maybe confronting to people and maybe offensive, but we tested it. And the response was just absolutely, overwhelmingly positive. And like I said, often when we're just the fact that we gave it a name, gave people the ability to talk about it and also feel connected to other people. And that's, that's when we knew we had to go deeper. And after some workshops we did and talks to conferences, we thought we should really write a book about this. Yeah,

Christiaan Verwijs 5:25

I think that that was something that we actually did somewhere in 2015, or 2016. That's when we started developing this idea, right. And to add the honest explanation of why we wrote a book, it's also that both Johannes, me and Barry, also, by the way, we have experienced scrum in teams where it works really well, where stakeholders are involved, where it's a lot of fun. I've been with a team for nine years, and it worked there. I mean, sure, we made mistakes. And we did some stupid stuff, some of which is in the book, by the way, but it works. And when I started looking, visiting other teams, I saw it wasn't always the case that it worked or not at all. And that kind of surprised me, because I wish for all teams to feel what it's like to work with Scrum effectively, and see how it actually helps them rather than be annoying or frustrating. And I think that that's also a big drive behind the book to show that it is possible and that you can do it.

Joe Krebs 6:23

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, right. So in the beginning of of Scrum, like in the early 2000s, there were books about how to get started with Scrum and so on. Right, that avalanche of books of Scrum introductions, etc. This is, this is a turning point, right? Because now we're talking about how to do Scrum. right! So there's a lot of people that have been trained to have been gone through training programs, etc, right. And now they're applying it and they're falling into this into this. You know, Zobie kind of behavior here, right? What are some some patterns that I'd say there is a listener out there listening to us right now? And he's just like, I don't know if I'm doing Zombie Scrum or not? Right? Like, what is it like a pattern? Maybe you can describe one of those patterns that you would say that is an indicator for your running a zombie Scrum?

Christiaan Verwijs 7:11

Sure, I can take the first one. And you almost can probably add more to that. But I think the most important one that we see is that there is no working software at the end of the sprint. And if you put this in scrum framework terminology is there's no done increment that's that's released at the end or near the end of the sprint to stakeholders. And in the case of severe zombie Scrum, that never actually happens, or maybe a year down the road, maybe there are releases happening to an internal staging environment, but it's not actually going to customers that are paying for the product, it's not actually going to the people that are going to use it, it's just going to internal stakeholders, whoever they are. So this lack of working software at the end of the sprint, for us, that's one of the biggest indicators that you're probably dealing with zombie Scrum.

Johannes Schartau 8:01

Right. And I just want to mention that we have a survey that you can take at survey at zombie scrum.org which is going to help you evaluate and we we designed the survey a while back. And it also kind of informed how we structured the book. So we have five big sections. First one is, what is Scrum? And does your challenge actually match what what scrum has to offer, because that's usually where it kind of starts, then what Christiaan said about shipping and getting the whole empirical process. So what is often makes this so empirical process control, loop started and new transparency, inspection adaptation that can only happen when you actually have a product that you can inspect. And if you don't have that, then the whole thing doesn't really happen. And you just Christiaan to just touch briefly on it. So what you want to do in in Scrum and with Scrum is to deliver something that stakeholders actually need, which is interesting that, you know, when you talk to zombie Scrum teams, they believe that is what they're doing. But one of the questions is, you know, who are your stakeholders? And that that kind of gets this whole discussion started? Like, where does the need for your product actually arise? Who benefits from it who invests in it? And we often find that zombie Scrum teams are far removed from the real source of that need, or the the value that you that you want to ship, right? And with that distance, there's this again, there's a disconnect between If you ship you get feedback, if you're actually delivering value, but you also need to get from the right people. And the scrum doesn't really explain what stakeholders are. So people often assume that it's built from accounting or, you know, someone inside the company that they kind of put in place as the stakeholder because often they other people can cause trouble for the team if they don't do what they're supposed to do. But that doesn't really mean that yeah, that that is where the product starts or where, where the whole loop kind of closes.

Joe Krebs 10:22

I think that's that's an interesting thing. Right? So what do you what you said Christiaan? On on the done? Are you both talking about the the thing that is completed by the end of a sprint, right, that done increment is casually said, but this is, this is a tough thing to do. Right? And so this is not an easy thing to do. To be totally honest, right? And there might be a lot of people out there right now saying, Oh, we have we have something done by the end of the sprint, but it's not like we got something done. This is a this is a done increment, right? This is potentially shippable. And that's where we see a lot of Zombies. So this is not easy to do. Right? And we'll definitely make that Jahnnes thanks for that link reference, we're going to make that link reference also available on the Show page. So people can just click on it and assess themselves against Zombie now. This is not a rare occasion out there in the industry, right to be a zombie team. I think that's a fair statement. Right? So if you're thinking if you're listening right now, it's just all that it's not apply to me. You have any kind of percentage or anything like where you would say we're dealing with X amount, roughly. Obviously, we don't know every single team around the world doing Scrum. But do you have any indication based on the surveys you have so far? Like? What's the what's the percentage of zombie versus non zombie?

Christiaan Verwijs 10:54

That's a good question. So roughly, it's about 60% of the teams that participated in the scrum team survey have quite moderate to severe zombie Scrum, it's very hard to define a cutoff point. But that's, that's one way to think of it. And most of the other teams like the 40%, other of the other teams have some elements of it. And there are some things in there too. They're doing really well in all areas. But that's as you say, it's it's quite rare. And I think that's okay, too, right. It's the mission or what scrum asks of teams, and especially if the organization's those teams are part of, it's really hard. And in the book, we describe it as sort of exercising, like if you start lifting weights, the first time you do it, you can maybe lifted once or twice, and then you have insane muscle ache the next day. But if you do it more often, and you start building the muscle to do it frequently, and also increase the weights that you can lift and it's the same with Scrum, the first few times it will be very hard to release an increment that's even close to done. But the next time it will be easier the next time it will be easier and so forth. So it's a journey. And that's okay.

Johannes Schartau 12:49

We just want to do create that awareness that that is what that's the goal behind Scrum. And often people don't actually know that, or they don't know how far it actually goes. Because there are layers of organizational dysfunction between what they perceive as good Scrum and what the theory is. And it doesn't mean like everybody has to ship daily, for example, that's not what it means. But it kind of has to match the the speed of learning or the feedback loop that you're involved in. And it makes the whole thing come alive. And that's just the knowledge, like robbing people of the illusion that they're already doing really well. And that is something that we were aiming for just to to create some healthy tension, right, just to make people question and question what is happening in the environment and asking the questions. How far do you want to take this? What is really helpful for us? How quick do we need to be? And that is definitely different for every team, but just asking those questions for us. That's kind of the beginning of getting out of that zone. Right?

Joe Krebs 14:03

Well, so I mean, I could play devil's advocate right now and say, You know what I have I have a team that is a zombie team. And you know, they're doing Scrum check. You know, I could check off a checkbox and say, like, we're doing Scrum, and we're compliant with Scrum. And we're doing, we're doing, we're doing that Zombie Scrum, but at least I'm doing some Scrum, right. How would you encounter like somebody like one an executive leadership level of saying like, there's some significant business loss around being a zombie team, right? Is there anything you we could make a case for, like, even if you're doing a zombie Scrum and you feel like hey, my organization, there's, there's a ton of Zombie Scrum, but at least I am doing Scrum and they're having the daily Scrum and they're having all these kinds of events, and I can check, check, check, check. What's the business loss behind it? What's the benefit of going non zombie and and making them survive to speak in the language of The title of the book

Johannes Schartau 15:04

do you want to go ahead, I can take it,

Christiaan Verwijs 15:06

you start Johannes

Johannes Schartau 15:07

okay.

Well, it's difficult to put a number on it. But what we talked about in the book is that most organizations really optimize for efficiency. And that's kind of the prevailing mindset that they believe they set up some kind of process, get people really, really busy. And then something valuable is just going to turn out in the end. And that's usually not the case. And that is actually where scrum can be really helpful that it helps it be more effective in the sense of learning whether what you're trying to do is actually going to work. And that doesn't only mean you creating more value quicker or getting more cash. But it could also mean just finding out that something doesn't work, and then having the ability to stop it. And that's something that also organizations are usually not good at just saying, we should get off this dead horse and do something else and redistribute our more resources to something that is more promising. And so if you if you're trapped in that zombie scrum environment, that feedback mechanism is really delayed. And so you will definitely invest into things that don't return anything for much longer time. Again, this is going to be different for organizations. But I mean, I've worked with organizations, they had release cycles of nine years, for example, and just imagine, like nine years would go, what we thought the world was going to look like, and what it looks like now and then just having this massive splash of software and go like, Oh, this is what it is. Now, how helpful is that? You know, like it's if anything changes in the meantime, you don't have the time to change it anymore. And you, you definitely you won't be able to capitalize on that. On that change.

Joe Krebs 16:56

Nine years feels like yesterday when we started.

Christiaan Verwijs 17:02

So be Yeah, absolutely. And it's let's be honest, for many organizations, this is the reality, right? It's what you described Joe's, what a lot of organizations do they check the boxes, and we're doing Scrum. So everyone has a certificate. But hey, it's not working. So we need some other framework or light or certificate or something to make it work. But what we tried to do in the book is something that I was kind of missing in many books about Scrum is that usually other books talk about the how, what are you doing as part of Scrum? And that's really important. But why are you doing that? And how does this help the bigger picture? So what we really did put an effort into his to explain why are we actually doing Scrum? What's the advantage for the organization. Ultimately, it's about risk management, right. So if you release more frequently, and you can validate those assumptions, if you don't release every nine years, but maybe start with every few months, then at least you can validate if your assumptions were correct, and you're not wasting money, potentially a lot of features that no one's looking for. And ultimately, I think that's the best way to explain it to management, upper management in organizations, it's going to save you money, it's going to save you a lot of efforts that you don't have to spend on building something that no one's looking for. And if you do it right, you will have happier stakeholders, happier customers. And if you're a commercial organization, or a non commercial organization, that's what's keeping you alive. Right? Right.

Joe Krebs 18:34

Yeah, absolutely. And then also you know, morale maybe where folks might be in zombie , wow. This is this is empowering, talk talking about empowering you both are very hip on liberating structures where it is it's part of, of your day to day life and Johannes you even founded the user group in in Hamburg, Germany. And how important is it for teams to use I'm not saying liberating structures but techniques and you know, like these, these micro tools in their day to day work, how important is it to use those to prevent possibly zombie Scrum? What's What's the connect to you?

Christiaan Verwijs 19:19

Yeah, I think you always want wants me to start. liberating structures are really the core of everything that we do. And I can speak for Barry for me and Johannes altogether. And it's not a it's not about liberating structures as a as an approach, but it's about what they make possible. And I think one of the reasons why organizations get stuck in zombie Scrum is because everyone's trying to solve impediments only within their own little area, like within a team or are in a department but ultimately, you need to bring people together and make sure that they all have a voice in what what actually is the problem that we're trying to solve. Why are we not releasing frequently? Why are no stakeholders present, and then work together to overcome those challenges. And this is why liberating structures are so helpful because they make that possible to give everyone a voice everyone in the team, your stakeholders, management, the people from marketing to people from sales, get them into a room or a virtual room, use liberating structures and overcome those problems together.

Johannes Schartau 20:25

Yeah, there's this kind of sentiment in the Agile community that you just do let people figure it out, well, just people will talk about it, and then it's going to work. But in our experience, you need something else, you need to structure that interaction and make it actually effective. And that's, that's why we like liberating structures. And like Christiaan said, you can use anything else, it's mainly about getting people engaged at the right time for the right kind of problems. I mean, you don't want everybody deciding everything all the time. But there are definitely parts where it is so beneficial to include more people. And especially if it's about like making sense of your own environment and tackling your own problems, finding solutions for your own problems. That is where, especially in that whole change that scrum kind of elicits in an organization because it causes tension, and then you need to deal with that. But you cannot just have that traditional model of, you know, we will we need to escalate to the manager or something. But often, it's really that you need the people on the ground to kind of make sense of what is happening collectively and then find solutions on their own. And then maybe ask for for help. But with, at least I'm speaking for myself, but prior to liberating structures, it didn't really have the tools to actually make that happen. It just was. Sometimes it was just like, Okay, I'll just get people into the room. And then we were just arguing all the time, and people were frustrated. So that's kind of the gap that liberating structures fills for me.

Joe Krebs 21:59

Yeah, that's interesting way because I, in my my classroom activities, there was this one activity I always did. And I had no name for it. And I just did it. And every time I did it, it was a great thing. And then this book came out. And I was like, Oh, I can't believe like, let's take a look at this book. Right? If there is this technique, and I didn't was it was the shift in shale, right? And so I was like, Oh, it has a name now is a shift in share, right. And so I find that is, that's good. That is these patterns are proven in a way that it's this is not only me doing something in the classroom, right or in a project, but it's, there's also others found useful and actually picked up someone created it and then and then you get this confidence into your facilitation to write as a facilitator, this is not something I just came up with. This is done many, many times and many different people and whatever the route is of that technique. And

Christiaan Verwijs 22:54

I think it's also good to mention that the creators of liberating structures Keith McCandless and Henri Lipmanowicz. They came up with this 20 years ago, almost, I think, even even longer, I think in South America, and that was one of the first experiments took place. It's been around for a long time, but it never made it never connected to the Agile community. And I think, well, we were probably not the first but you're always an i, we you always had you read the book, I think, right. And you shared it. And we were excited about it started trying it out.

Johannes Schartau 23:26

I in 2014, I met someone in the states who was from Seattle, and he was actually working with Keith, and he introduced me, and then it kind of took off. And that's how I got introduced. But it was really about like when I had the first experience of what that was, and it was actually in a phone conference. But it works so well that I just thought what is this? Because we had been talking for think 45 minutes, it wasn't a one hour call. It went nowhere. Everybody was just like, Yeah, okay, so what else could we talk about? And then the guy just said, Okay, let's do this. And then let's do this. And then let's do that I was within the last 15 minutes was like 100 times more productive than the first 45 and I Yeah, people you just need to experience that. And it just helps teams also to it helps them feel productive and effective. While collaborating with can be really frustrating when you have some kind of Scrum Master Agile coach who always wants you to collaborate, and it doesn't feel like it leads anyway, it kind of feels like a waste of time. And if you if you get people to collaborate and it feels beneficial, and they're like, Hey, we actually got something really important off today. That has like a really good effect on the whole self organization team autonomy side of Scrum. Yeah.

Joe Krebs 24:48

Yeah, totally away just like you know, like, you know, the second day whenever these things are being introduced in an open space since 2009 at a conference in in New York, we do it every year and people are asking for it, right? Just saying, like, you're not doing a conference without open space, right? And it's like now it's like, Okay, we're coming, right? So. So it's like, it's like it really becomes part of the DNA of a culture and cool. Another thing you mentioned Christiaan is the something called certificates here, just want to bring this out, there's a ton of certifications going on. And just recently, I spoke with someone who said, there's a, an incredible number, I forgot the number. To be honest, I don't want to put in a wrong number out here. But an incredible number of people are being certified in scrum number is rising. And we're talking Scrum Alliance and scrum.org. All of those certificates are being handed out. But Zombie Scrum is increasing, too. So those two things are not going necessarily together, right. So one might actually create the behavior on the other side. What's What's your take on that? Both of you guys, but I know Christiaan is, is a scrum trainer was already versus others like me. Yeah. Yeah.

Christiaan Verwijs 25:58

So I can only say positive things about significance, right? Because I'm a trainer. No, I think it's interesting. Well, you could say that the rice and certifications can also be a sign that more and more people are starting to work with Scrum. And I can also explain why you're seeing more zombie Scrum, because it's so Zombie Scrum is just a large percentage of all the teams that are working with Scrum. But at the same time, I think there's also something to say for the idea that sometimes, and we also get those people in our classes is that the only reason they're there is to get the certificates. And that's what they need, because they can put it on the resume and or companies actually look for those certificates without asking anything else, just do you have that certificate, okay, then you're a scrum master. But obviously, it's much harder to do all these things, to be a good product owner, to be a good developer to be a good scrum master to be a good at any of those other roles that you can get certificates for. And sometimes I feel like that message is lost in the certification industry. And that can that can definitely be a problem. And I think that that's what we're seeing, in some cases. Absolutely. What's your take on that Johannes because...

Johannes Schartau 27:12

I'm so well, it's difficult to say because, for example, I am a certified team coach for the scrum Alliance. And I would just have to say I can only report really positive things about the whole process. I like what the scrum alliance is doing at the moment. And I also like at scrum.org, the, the later PSM classes really need you to reflect and they are essentially a learning journey. And that is something that I find really valuable, at least for me, I know that through that, gaining that certificate, my effectiveness as an Agile coach has really increased just because I had to, I had to talk about I had to write about my mental models, and just had to reflect on what it is that I'm actually doing. Because often I feel like we are, we're kind of using our intuition. But that doesn't always help with clients. So for example, if you want to tell them, This is how I look at your situation, or this is a model that we can use to assess your system together. And this is how I define success. How do you define success, and let's, let's see what that means for our work, for example, that is something that I learned just simply from telling other people about what it is that I'm doing while I'm working with a client. And that is really beneficial. So maybe the rise in certification should be accompanied by the encouraging people to pursue these higher certificates that really evolve, they really need a lot of effort for people to grow into. And maybe like the first step should be just clarify, John, if you get the certificate, it just means you have him you have read the scrum guide multiple times. And that's good, that's better than what other people do. But what you really what you should really strive for is something else. And so it's difficult, but I'm not against certificates. I have I personally have gained some really valuable experience from them. I can see why people don't like them. So I guess I'm somewhere in between.

Christiaan Verwijs 29:26

Nobody, I think of what you say it's a good point. Like it's not it's not certificates in themselves. That's the problem, but the way in which you achieve them. So is it is it a two day class or a one day class or even a bit of money that you pay for it? Or is there a learning journey that's part of actually getting that certificate? And that's what you're saying? Right? That's what's so important. You need to have that learning journey. Yeah, I agree with that. Absolutely.

Joe Krebs 29:52

Yeah. It's like owning a driver's license doesn't make you necessarily a good driver.

Christiaan Verwijs 29:55

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Krebs 29:57

So, but it's also good To for me, personally, I feel like this certification is good. So I know what somebody else knows when they carry around that certificate. Why? Because there's like a, I want to say a standard of some sort, but at least like, you know, there was some, some evidence was about about the knowledge etc, if you don't have that it's just like this, there's probably a lot of conversation about what the things were, etc. And they could be quite different. Towards the end of our podcast here. I want to talk a little bit about something you just mentioned about Scrum guide, there was just recently a new scrum guide, I think it just fell exactly on the time when you guys published a book, what I want to hear your, your take on this because it's, it's the new scrum guide. Is that good against Zombie Scrum, like the product goal, for example, the the emphasis on that the addition of the product goal or the emphasis on the sprint goal, the commitment levels etc are these good things for Zombie or against Zombie Scrum?

Johannes Schartau 30:58

Biggest thing for me personally, it's kind of going in the right direction, I don't think the scrum guide itself can solve the root cause, which is you know, people just have different expectations or different imagined different things of what what Scrum is. And so they kind of bring that view and it makes them read the scrum guide in a certain way if they actually read it, because a lot of people don't. It was funny, because while we were writing the book, we were informed that there would be a new scrum guide. And we also knew what was going to be in it. And then the question was, should we change our book, but we kind of realized that most of what we wrote about is was actually compliant. So Christiaan, correct me, but for example, the, what we the whole chapter on on self organization. That was for us, that was one of the most interesting ones to write because we kind of knew what should be in there. But we also, we had to take our time to spell out what that is and what we actually believe, because it's, it's difficult to grasp. And one of the things we started out with was about when we started defining self organization and trying to compare it to self management, right. And so what we wrote about was, for example, that the scrum guide actually kind of means self managing instead of self organizing. And that was something that was actually addressed later, not because of us, but it just kind of happened at the same time. That was really interesting. Yeah,

Christiaan Verwijs 32:36

it was pretty cool. And I think that in our book, we pay a lot of attention to shared goals. The term product goal, we can't use that yet in our book, because the scrum guide wasn't updated yet. But we talked about having a vision strategy, a sense of where the product is going. We also talk a lot about sprint goals. So that's definitely something that's very much aligned with the changes that were made. But I do agree with Johannes. And I think that no matter how you write the scrum guide, it's not going to prevent zombie Scrum. It's a bit like, like, in a sense, sometimes think like it's a bit like the Bible, right? It's to describe what is actually a good moral person. But we've been spending 2000 years to figure out what it actually says about how to be a good moral person, no matter how many perspectives you add to it, it doesn't actually clarify it, you have to talk about it with the people around you. And that goes for the scrum guide as well. You have to make sense of this within your organization with with your teams and with all the books that are available, the blog posts, podcasts, etc. Yeah.

Joe Krebs 33:39

Cool, guys, I want to thank you guys for spending a little bit of time with me where the listeners talking about the new book, The zombie scrum Survival Guide, published by Christiane Verwijs, Johannes Schartau and Barry Overeem. And it's available, obviously for to be purchased to prevent Zombie Scrum. And I feel like I feel like we could have another show at some point, which is talking about liberating structures to take like, besides this book, we could continue to conversation about another topic. But that's for another time. How was that?

Johannes Schartau 34:15

Great,

Christiaan Verwijs 34:15

sounds great. And if people are interested in the book, they can go to zombiescrum.org. We have information there on where to get the book. You can also get it at every bookstore that you can imagine.

Joe Krebs 34:27

Awesome. I want to make all these links available in the show page. And as well as links to you guys and how are people get in touch with you? No, not beyond the book things other things that might be of interest. Thank you so much.

Johannes Schartau 34:40

Thank you.

Christiaan Verwijs 34:40

Thank you.

Joe Krebs 34:42

Thank you for listening to Agile FM, the radio for the Agile community. I'm your host Joe Krebs. If you're interested in more programming and additional podcasts, please go to www.agile.fm. Talk to you soon.