Diaspora Modern Orthodoxy and Israeli Religious Zionism: Similarities, Differences, Opportunities, and Challenges, with Shayna Goldberg (191)
Jan 22, 2024
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In this episode, the speaker discusses the commonalities and gaps between Jews worldwide and Israelis during the war in Israel. They explore the similarities and differences between the Modern Orthodox world outside of Israel and the Dati Leumi community in Israel. The speakers also discuss raising children in Israel versus outside of Israel and the pros and cons associated with each. They emphasize the importance of understanding differences within the community, explore the distinctions between the T'lume and Modern Orthodox worlds, and delves into the differences between the datilumi and harda communities. They also touch on creating an identity for children that embraces cultural diversity.
Modern orthodoxy in the diaspora emphasizes religious observance and adherence to religious rules, while the Dati community in Israel places greater importance on religious values, spirituality, connection to Hashem, and Torah study.
Modern orthodoxy values engagement with the secular world, secular education, and being part of the broader society, while the Dati community in Israel prioritizes a strong connection to Hashem's world, a sense of national and collective identity, and active participation in national events and political movements.
In the modern orthodox community, there is a focus on integrating secular knowledge and culture into religious life, while in the Dati community, the emphasis is more on national priorities and religious identity.
There is a distinction between 'modern' orthodoxy in the diaspora, which is about relating to present times and integrating modernity into religious life, and the Dati community in Israel, which places importance on contemporary issues through a religious lens and emphasizes the broader national identity.
Deep dives
Orthodox versus Dati - Emphasizing Different Aspects of Religious Identity
In the diaspora, the modern orthodox community places a heavy emphasis on adhering to religious rules and norms (Orthodox), with the goal of maintaining a strong Jewish identity and avoiding assimilation. Halacha (Jewish law) is central, defining religious observance. In Israel, the Dati (religious) community goes beyond just adhering to rules and places greater importance on religious values, spirituality, connection to Hashem, prayer, Torah study, and religious ideals. While halacha is important, it is not the sole focus. This difference in emphasis creates a more fluid and nuanced understanding of religious identity in Israel, where individuals define their level of religious commitment along a spectrum rather than in binary terms.
Modern Orthodox and Dati: Engaging with the World and National Identity
Modern orthodoxy not only emphasizes religious observance but also engaging with the world. In this approach, the modern orthodox community values secular education, cultural engagement, and being part of the broader society. There is an openness to benefit religiously from being connected to the world while maintaining a critical approach from a Torah perspective. In contrast, Dati community in Israel values a strong connection to Hashem's world and a sense of national and collective identity. This includes a readiness to sacrifice for the country, enthusiasm for the army, and active participation in national events and political movements. While the Dati community also values learning and engaging with Torah, the emphasis is on the broader vision for the nation and a willingness to prioritize national needs over personal ones.
Orthodox and Dati Approaches to General Culture and Academic Pursuits
In the modern orthodox community, there is a value placed on engaging with general culture and the broader academic world. Secular education is respected and seen as enhancing religious values and one's relationship with Hashem. The goal is to find nobility and enrichment in general culture while maintaining a critical Torah perspective. In the Dati community, the emphasis on secular studies may be less pronounced. Instead of integrating general knowledge into religious life, the focus in the Dati community is on the priorities of the nation and religious identity. While engagement with secular knowledge is recognized as valuable, it may not hold the same level of importance as it does in the modern orthodox community.
Modern and Dati: Balancing Present Times and National Identity
The terms 'modern' and 'dati' also highlight a distinction between being connected to present times and emphasizing national identity. Modern orthodoxy in the diaspora is about relating to recent times, engaging with the world, valuing secular education, and integrating modernity into religious life. In Israel, the Dati community places importance on contemporary issues through a religious lens while throughout the broader national identity. This includes a deep emotional connection to national symbols, a willingness to prioritize national needs, and active participation in political movements and demonstrations.
Sustaining the Dati Leumi Identity
The speaker discusses the challenges and advantages of maintaining a balance between the modern Orthodox (Dati) and national-religious (Dati Leumi) communities in Israel. She highlights the importance of understanding and appreciating the different values and cultural tendencies present in both communities. The speaker emphasizes the value of creating opportunities for dialogue and listening to each other, which can lead to a synthesis of values and the integration of positive aspects from both communities. She believes that by embracing the tensions and complexities, it is possible to raise children who embody a unified identity, combining spirituality, commitment to Israel, personal growth, and critical thinking.
Educational Systems: Individualism vs. Collectivism
The speaker compares the educational systems in America and Israel, illustrating the different emphases placed on individualism and collectivism, respectively. In the American system, the focus is on academic achievement, self-actualization, and self-expression, preparing students for college and personal development. In contrast, the Israeli system, influenced by Jewish and Middle Eastern cultures, places a greater emphasis on the collective experience, volunteering, and contributing to the nation. The speaker acknowledges the challenges and advantages of both systems, suggesting that finding a balance between personal growth and societal responsibility is essential.
Integrating Western and Israeli Values
The speaker explores the possibility of integrating the best aspects of the modern Orthodox world and the dati Leumi world. She highlights the importance of engaging in a dialogue that allows for the sharing of ideas and values between different Jewish communities, both in Israel and in the Diaspora. The speaker emphasizes the need for humility, active listening, and a willingness to consider different perspectives. She believes that by creating opportunities for real listening and genuine dialogue, it is possible to synthesize and embrace the positive aspects of both worlds, creating a comprehensive and unified Jewish identity.
The war in Israel, which is now well over one hundred days old, has in some ways highlighted the commonalities between all Jews across the world, no matter where they live, and in other ways demonstrated the gaps that continue to exist between an Israeli public that is dealing with the reality of war on their doorsteps, and a non-Israel Jewish world which, despite its emotional investment in Israel, obviously is not experiencing war in the same way that Israelis do.
The highlighting of these similarities and differences is at the forefront of the Jewish conversation today, so it seemed appropos to discuss one of the most important areas of both overlap and divergence: namely, the broadly defined Modern Orthodox world that exists outside of Israel, and the Dati Leumi world in Israel - that is, the community that defines itself as National Religious.
Shayna Goldberg has been on the Orthodox Conundrum before, and her insights into tricky subjects like this are always nuanced and welcome. For that reason, Scott was honored to have her back on the podcast to talk about the definitions of the words Modern, Orthodox, Dati, and Leumi, and the various ways that these communities are similar and different. They also talked about differences in the way that kids are raised in Israel and outside of Israel, both at home and at school, and some of the advantages and disadvantages associated with each.
The insights that Shayna brings to the table will hopefully spark important conversations about how best to raise our children - and how best to live our lives - by assimilating the best from each world into our lives, while avoiding some of the pitfalls that are part of them, as well.
You can read two articles that Shayna wrote about raising Israeli kids here and here.
Check out the Orthodox Conundrum Commentary on Substack and get your free subscription by going to https://scottkahn.substack.com/.
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Music: "Happy Rock" by bensound.com
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