Supported by Our Partners

•⁠ WorkOS — The modern identity platform for B2B SaaS.

•⁠ The Software Engineer’s Guidebook: Written by me (Gergely) – now out in audio form as well.

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How do you get product and engineering to truly operate as one team? Today, I’m joined by Ebi Atawodi, Director of Product Management at YouTube Studio, and a former product leader at Netflix and Uber.

Ebi was the first PM I partnered with after stepping into engineering management at Uber, and we both learned a lot together. We share lessons from our time at Uber and discuss how strong product-engineering partnerships drive better outcomes, grow teams, foster cultures of ownership, and unlock agency, innovation, and trust.

In this episode, we cover:

• Why you need to earn a new team's trust before trying to drive change

• How practices like the "business scorecard" and “State of the Union” updates helped communicate business goals and impact to teams at Uber

• How understanding business impact leads to more ideas and collaboration

• A case for getting to know your team as people, not just employees

• Why junior employees should have a conversation with a recruiter every six months

• Ebi’s approach to solving small problems with the bet that they’ll unlock larger, more impactful solutions

• Why investing time in trust and connection isn't at odds with efficiency

• The qualities of the best engineers—and why they’re the same traits that make people successful in any role

• The three-pronged definition of product: business impact, feasibility, and customer experience

• Why you should treat your career as a project

• And more!

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Timestamps

(00:00) Intro

(02:19) The product review where Gergely first met Ebi

(05:45) Ebi’s learning about earning trust before being direct

(08:01) The value of tying everything to business impact

(11:53) What meetings looked like at Uber before Ebi joined

(12:35) How Ebi’s influence created more of a start-up environment

(15:12) An overview of “State of the Union”

(18:06) How Ebi helped the cash team secure headcount

(24:10) How a dinner out helped Ebi and Gergely work better together

(28:11) Why good leaders help their employees reach their full potential

(30:24) Product-minded engineers and the value of trust

(33:04) Ebi’s approach to passion in work: loving the problem, the work, and the people

(36:00) How Gergely and Ebi secretly bootstrapped a project then asked for headcount

(36:55) How a real problem led to a novel solution that also led to a policy change

(40:30) Ebi’s approach to solving problems and tying them to a bigger value unlock

(43:58) How Ebi developed her playbooks for vision setting, fundraising, and more

(45:59) Why Gergely prioritized meeting people on his trips to San Francisco

(46:50) A case for making in-person interactions more about connection

(50:44) The genius-jerk archetype vs. brilliant people who struggle with social skills

(52:48) The traits of the best engineers—and why they apply to other roles, too

(1:03:27) Why product leaders need to love the product and the business

(1:06:54) The value of a good PM

(1:08:05) Sponsorship vs. mentorship and treating your career like a project

(1:11:50) A case for playing the long game

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The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:

• The product-minded software engineer

• Working with Product Managers as an Engineering Manager or Engineer

• Working with Product Managers: advice from PMs

• What is Growth Engineering?

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See the transcript and other references from the episode at ⁠⁠https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast⁠⁠

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