Today Virginia is chatting with Brianna Campos.

Bri is a licensed professional counselor and body image coach who works with folks recovering from eating disorders, and finding body acceptance through grief. You may know Bri from Instagram, or from her newsletter, Body Image with Bri.

Bri and I talk about why this concept of body grief is so important—and yet so often overlooked in this work. And she shares how doing her own body grief work has led her to have a happier relationship with her body and to start dating again—confidently and with a lot of joy as a superfat person.

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Guest interviews are always free on Burnt Toast, but paid subscriptions enable us to pay guests for their time, labor and expertise. (This is extremely rare in the world of podcasting, but key to centering marginalized voices!)

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CREDITS

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay. Follow Virginia on Instagram, Follow Corinne @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing and subscribe to Big Undies.

Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism.

You’re listening to Burnt Toast!

I’m Virginia Sole-Smith, and today my guest is Brianna Campos.

Bri is a licensed professional counselor and body image coach who works with folks recovering from eating disorders, and finding body acceptance through grief. You may know Bri from Instagram, or from her newsletter, Body Image with Bri.

Bri and I talk about why this concept of body grief is so important—and yet so often overlooked in this work. And she shares how doing her own body grief work has led her to have a happier relationship with her body and to start dating again—confidently and with a lot of joy as a superfat person.

Bri is such a delight, and I learned so much from talking with her. You are going to love this episode!

If you find today’s episode valuable, please consider supporting our work with a paid subscription!

Guest interviews are always free on Burnt Toast, but paid subscriptions enable us to pay guests for their time, labor and expertise. (This is extremely rare in the world of podcasting, but key to centering marginalized voices!)

This episode contains affiliate links. Shopping our links is a great way to support Burnt Toast! You’ll find all of the links aggregated here.

Episode 182 Transcript

Bri

My name is Bri. I am on Instagram as Body Image with Bri. I am a trained mental health counselor in the state of New Jersey, and I transitioned to body image coaching and education somewhere around 2018 or 2019. The way I work with folks in helping to make peace with your here and now body is through this concept of body grief.

Virginia

I think the whole idea of “body grief” is something that gets left out of a lot of the conversations around bodies, and fat liberation. So tell us how you use this phrase and why you think it’s so important to make space for this grief work?

Bri

I was working in eating disorder recovery. And it’s funny, because I was with clients, and thinking, “Huh, do I have an eating disorder? No, I can’t have an eating disorder, I’m fat!” And not using fat in a reclaimed way.

I started to notice, wow, what’s being prescribed as a person in a fat body is being diagnosed in a thin body as an eating disorder. That’s a quote from Deb Burgard, an eating disorder therapist and one of the founders of Health At Every Size. The dissonance for me was huge. Like, wow, so the only difference is because I exist in this body.

So when I’m telling these girls—I worked in a facility that was only girls— “we just have to accept your body,” and they had a hard time with it, and they lived in socially acceptable bodies, it dawned on me how much harder it’s going to be for me to accept my own body. I felt like that was the piece of the conversation that was getting left out. Acceptance doesn’t actually mean that you have to like it or love it. If you look at the stages of grief according to Elisabeth Kübler-Ross, acceptance is sort of the outcome. It’s not a destination.

But first we have this place of denial and bargaining—I see a lot of people who get stuck in this bargaining phase. Between the bargaining of “maybe I can still fix this” and “this is my body.” It’s “I don’t love that this is my body” and “this is where I’m at.” Most of us don’t want to enter that.

The working definition I have for body grief is: The distress associated with the perceived loss around body change.

The reason I make it such an expansive definition is because that works for people going through puberty. That works for people going through perimenopause and menopause, people who are aging. It works in alignment with gender dysphoria. It’s a change in one’s body that’s causing you distress because of what you will lose, or perceive yourself to lose.

Virginia

I’m interested that you say perceived loss, because there are tangible losses sometimes, with body changes. But also, sometimes, not. Or they aren’t the losses we expected.

Bri

Correct. That’s what makes this so tricky. We have systemic anti-fat bias that exists in the world. So as somebody in what I would identify as a superfat body, there are times where I won’t fit in a booth at a restaurant. I may have to ask for additional seating at a venue. I can’t clothes shop in most stores. That loss is real, but it’s very easy for me to identify that as a systemic issue.

To me, the grief was more in the emotional pieces that I thought I was going to lose out on. One of the stories that I very much believed when I was starting to do this work is that if I don’t exist in a smaller body, no man will ever find me attractive. I date men, unfortunately. They are a liability. And I know some really great men, right??

Virginia

#notallmen, but also…

Bri

But also. Come on.

I had been exposed to a lot of anti-fatness, especially in the dating world. I’ll rephrase that, I don’t think I was exposed to it as much as I was observing other people experience it. And I was like, Oh no, no, no. I don’t want to experience that at all.

Virginia

I’m not going to put myself out for that.

Bri

I also thought I would lose the respect of of potential clients I had. I worked for a company once that said, “If a family is uncomfortable with your body size, we’re going to remove you from the case.” They tried to make it seem like it was for me. And I was like, oh, that’s fucked up. But I was so new in my own body image exploration, that I was just like, I know this is wrong but I don’t know why. And now I’m like, now I know why. Now I get it.

Virginia

I’m just taking a minute with that one. So, if a family is uncomfortable with your body size, we’ll remove you from the case. Rather than the entire thing we’re here to work on is is overcoming that discomfort and internalized fatphobia.

Bri

It was like, “Well, we wouldn’t want to subject you to that.” And I took the job anyway, so, I mean, there’s that.

And I think there’s something to be said about the societal and social pressure of existing in a smaller body. Something else I grieved so bigly was the the fear of never being “healthy” enough for my doctors. I just wanted to do a good job!

Virginia

That one’s a mix of emotions and systemic, right? Because it’s the fucked up system that results in doctors treating you that way. But it’s also so vulnerable and emotional to go into the doctor’s office.

Bri

People will look at my body as a billboard for my health. Somebody will look at me and believe that they know my health status without ever looking at any other criteria. So what I felt was not only the loss of privilege, which is that systemic piece, but was no longer even being able to hide with privilege. If I was aggressively working out and dieting, at least I could come with evidence of here’s all that I’m doing, and my body isn’t changing, right?

What I realized was: It was never going to be enough. There was no amount of weight that I could lose that would actually allow me to experience quality medical care. I remember I had been working out so aggressively, while also working in eating disorder recovery. I was passing out while I was working out because I have orthostatic hypertension and I shouldn’t be bending over. Didn’t know this. And every single doctor was like, “I really just want to talk about how concerned I am for your BMI.” And I lost it. I was like, “What would you like me to do? I’m working out five, six days a week.” And he was like, “Well, I just want you to keep trying.” I’m like, I’m here because I’m working out and passing out.

Virginia

It’s that Good Fatty thing. You can follow all the rules but they’re not ever going to give out the gold stars.

Bri

I think that was my diet culture breaking point. I realized it was never going to be enough for the world. Every time I’d hit a goal post, the goal post would change. And I realized this is an exercise in futility. I am just going to keep doing this over and over and over again. As somebody who loves to succeed—I love a gold star, I love to hit check boxes—I was like, I’m just going to always fail at this.

So I really had to sit with myself and say, “If I fail at shrinking my body, and I say, I surrender and I just allow my body to do what it’s going to do, what is the worst thing that could possibly happen, truly?”

I recognized I would lose a lot of privilege. I would lose accessibility. I would lose the praise and adoration from society. I could potentially miss out on partners and jobs and respect. And at the end of the day, I know that that didn’t align with my own values.

I don’t measure somebody’s enoughness, or humanity, based on how many days a week they exercise ,and how many vegetables they eat, or how good they are at shrinking their bodies. The true connections that I have with people don’t revolve around that.

But it was a lot easier for me to accept that, because nothing I did worked. I find that people who are able to hold onto thin privilege can stay stuck in that bargaining phase a lot longer.

Virginia

Yes, I think that’s right. Because it’s just within reach.

Bri

I was always fat.

Virginia

The seduction of thin privilege is so intense. It’s hard for people to recognize they’re never going to get there either. The goal post is always moving for everybody.

Bri

Sonya Renee Taylor talks about it and talks about in her book, The Body Is Not an Apology. 10/10 recommend to anybody who is on a healing journey. I’ve had clients tell me this feels advanced for me, which I get, and also breaks my heart, because what she’s talking about is radical self acceptance. And that is too hard for people. If that’s the case, I recommend starting with Jes Baker’s book Things No One Will Tell Fat Girls.

Virginia

Also wonderful.

Bri

A great starting point of like, oh shit. This is where all this started. This is how I can check in with myself. But Sonya Renee Taylor talks about beauty standard sas this ladder, and she says, You can climb this ladder, but it has to be knowing that you’re never going to get to the top. How do we know that there’s no top? Look at Oprah. Look at the Kardashians. Look at these people who have infinite amount of resources to attain the impossible and how long have they been able to hold it for? If not even the most privileged people in the world can reach that, what hope do the rest of us have?

Virginia

It’s a rigged system.

Bri

She says, you have two choices. You can climb the ladder knowing that you’re never going to get to the top, or you can choose not to climb the ladder.

Virginia

You already mentioned that one of the things you had to grieve was what would this mean for future partners. And yet, you’ve been talking on Instagram recently about being out there on the dating apps!

So clearly that fear was not entirely realized and I want to talk about this.

Bri

It’s honestly, like—it’s so fun for me. If you had told 2018 Bri, “Not only are you going to get through this, but you’re going to get to the other side, and you’re going to start talking about your own dating life,” I would have been like, “That’s not gonna happen. That’s not my story.”

So I’m so excited to talk about it. It’s still raw and new and exciting and emotional. So we’re going to just kind of navigate it together. I consider myself somewhat of a late bloomer. I didn’t really date extensively when I was younger. I would say 85 percent of that was body image shit, and then the rest of it was religious shit.

Virginia

That’s a fun combination for you.

Bri

Oh, it’s super cool. It’s great. Doing my own deconstructing of faith and beliefs and and self. And what I can say through the last several years of doing this body image work is: Body image wounds often are a mask for a deeper wound. And bear with me on this, because I think there are some times where it is like, yes, my body is just uncomfortable, but the connection isn’t the problem. It’s the interpretation of what that connection means.

Let’s say you change over your seasonal clothes and your pants don’t fit. There might be physical discomfort in your clothes not fitting, but usually what’s activating is that there’s an emotional story of “oh my God, my pants don’t fit. This is bad. This is not a good thing.” And then we start to panic. So the analogy I’ll use is it’s a little bit like a fire alarm going off, and your brain telling you we have to stop drop and roll. I’m a child of the 90s. The amount of training we did for stop, drop, and roll—I thought the probability of catching on fire was so high. Nobody talked to me about emotional regulation.

Virginia

We were prepared to roll flames out of our bodies at a moment’s notice. But name our feelings, no thank you.

Bri

So when we feel connected to our bodies sometimes, or most times I would argue, we associate it negatively. I did everything I could to not connect to my body. So then, anytime I had connection, I interpreted as it is something bad.

So like, clothes not fitting, not fitting in public spaces, feeling bloated, having a stomach ache—everything was just like, oh, this is a negative connection. There was no awareness of like, hey, you know what feels really good? Drinking a warm cup of coffee! That feels good in your body. You know what feels good? A nice hug. A cozy sweater. We can feel good in our body. The problem is we minimize that experience and we exacerbate the distressful experience.

So I remember starting to really seriously date in my 20s, and I hated it so much. It was not for me. I was like, “This feels effortful in a way that I just would rather be home and not trying.” And I kind of just let dating and relationships and all that go to the wayside.

During the pandemic, I am a provider. It was a very stressful time for providers, especially. And I would get off my calls at the end of the day, and I’d be like, “Wow, I have pain in my chest that I can’t manage.” So I changed medications. I went from low anxiety meds to a a different medication—I’ll just name what I was on. I went on Zoloft and it worked great. Did exactly what I needed to do. But fast forward now to 2024, and I’m newly diagnosed with ADHD. I’m working with a new provider who says “I think we should try you on a different med that goes really well with ADHD.” And I switched from Zoloft to Wellbutrin. And when I tell you, it was like a light switch. It was like my entire system. Do you remember when you would turn on your computer back in the day, it would go? That’s what it sort of felt like.

Virginia

And I’ll just interject quickly that if you’re on Zoloft and it’s working for you, we’re not saying don’t be on Zoloft.

Bri

No, please talk to your providers. I will also just advocate, too, if you are somebody who thinks you’re neurodivergent or is neurodivergent and your provider doesn’t understand neurodivergence, find a provider who does. Because mine did. I was like, I don’t have ADHD. And she was like, well, it could look like this, but could also look like this. And I was like, oh yeah, I do do that.

Virginia

It does look like that, actually.

Bri

Yeah, and like, night and day. And absolutely this is not a recommendation of getting off your meds.

Virginia

Bri is just saying, find the meds that work for you. And if you are noticing this suppressed feeling or numb feeling, this could be a conversation to have with your doctor to see if tweaks can help reboot your computer, so to speak.

Bri

Amen.

Virginia

So you had the rebooting, the computer turning on. And then you were like, all right, I’m going to get out there. How did it go?

Bri

So this is now the first time in recent history where I’m getting out into the dating world. And my body image is healed, my self esteem is healed, and I was still a fucking anxious basket case. And I’m like, What the fuck? Why did I do all of this work?

Virginia

This should be easy!

Bri

It is such a beautiful mirror to healing your body image. Because I thought healing my body image meant that I was going to feel sexy all of the time. That I was going to feel 100 percent comfortable all the time. And I’m like, no, that’s not it. Healing my body image just means that there are days I’m like, “I feel uncomfortable,” but I no longer have a secondary story about it. Or when I do, when I’m having a lot of old body image thoughts, now I can recognize that is a clue for me. Of like, hey, these are old patterns. What’s happening? Why is our nervous system going backwards? What is happening? We are regressing.

And oftentimes it comes from two things. 1. Not connecting to my body. Like having purposely or just absentmindedly disconnecting from my body for a long period of time. Or 2. Being being around super fatphobic people.

Virginia

Yeah, that can do it!

Bri

So with this dating thing, I’m like, I love myself. I love my body. Why am I still anxious?

Virginia

Maybe because there are other people involved now?

Bri

There it is. And I was like, damn it, this is so hard.

Virginia

They might not be cool. You’re cool, but who knows how they’ll be.

Bri

There’s social anxiety, and there’s like, oh my God, I have to small talk. And I’m a therapist, I could small talk you under the table, right? But I don’t want to do that.

And I’ve said this to a couple of, you know, people that I’ve met up with. It’s one thing for me to have healed my own body image, but it is a very vulnerable thing to have my body be potentially rejected by someone else. So that’s a very real concern.

Virginia

That’s terrifying.

Bri

I think two of the biggest concerns I had with going into dating and putting myself out there, was that I was going to either be rejected or that I or that I was going to be fetishized.

Virginia

I think these are the universal big fears for fat folks dating. Either no one will want me, or everyone will want me, but only in a weird, creepy way.

Bri

Yeah. Not my experience.

Virginia

Great.

Bri

Not my experience.

Virginia

And I’ll just add for the record: Not mine either, listeners. So that’s two votes for not that experience as fat ladies.

Bri

It’s not that it doesn’t happen, but I would say it happens so infrequently that it doesn’t detract from the experience. It doesn’t make me not want to date.

And I can tell pretty quickly if somebody has a fat fetish. So I’ve just gotten really comfortable saying, “Hey, I’m just going to name this off the bat. If that’s your kink, there’s no shame. But that’s not my kink. So I don’t think it’s going to be a match if that’s for you. I know there are other people out there who will be a great fit for you.”

Virginia

We should also say: We’re talking about being fetishized without consent, which is different from a shared fetish, where you’re both into it. Great, have a good time. That’s lovely.

Bri

Because it’s like, how do you know if I’m consenting to it? If somebody just messages me, and is like, “Oh my god, I love your, your big, beautiful body. I love big, beautiful women,”—you are now fetishizing me without my first consenting that this is something I’m into. To me that’s an ick. Bless and release.

I did have somebody who was very polite and said, “This is my kink. Like, I do love big women.” And I was like, I’ll entertain it. It ended very quickly.

Virginia

And is this all happening over DMS on the app? Are you trying to clarify these things before you meet up in person?

Bri

100 percent. And like, really connecting with somebody beforehand. I have yet to find or meet up with somebody that I met off the streets, but that would require me to leave my house.

Virginia

Yeah, so gross.

Bri

I don’t love doing this.

Virginia

It’s cold. What are we superheroes?

No, I really think the apps—I mean, obviously they’re a mixed bag. There are a lot of terrible things about them—but I think the ability to establish clarity about key topics over DMs before you have to put clothes on and leave your house is a huge gift of technology.

Bri

What I tell my friends is: I have learned so much about myself in this process. This is my dating era. I am dating now more than I have ever in my life. And I actually took a dating course with my friend Lily Womble. It’s called main character dating, and she really taught me how to figure out what I want and to ask for what I want unapologetically even if I don’t believe it exists. Yeah, even if I don’t think it’s out there, like, let’s just name it and claim it. If we connect with somebody, and then it changes, we get to bless and release that person.

And I will tell you this entire process, I’m like, Okay, I’ve learned something new. Like, I’m going to need to do a phone call before I meet up with you. Because, if we can’t hold a conversation, this isn’t going to work.

There are so many things that I’m learning about myself through this that, outside of the men, has been healing for me.

Virginia

Super valuable.

Bri

And even just: Being able to name what I want and ask for it unapologetically as a fat woman. Also healing.

Virginia

So healing. I love this.

Anything else you really advise people do to help work through those fears as you’re getting into the process?

Bri

As you’re getting into the process, I will tell you, we have to start with you first. Because again, I had zero, body image shit going into this, and I was still an anxious mess. I am so confident in myself, and I still was anxious. And what I realized was it was multi-layered. Some of it was old patterns, just going down that groove, old messages and stories coming up. There’s also some anticipatory anxiety of doing this thing that you have nothing to compare it to. Am I resourceful enough to handle the worst case scenario? What’s the worst case scenario that could come out of this situation?

But we are a resourceful bunch. I don’t believe that we need to be resilient. I just think we need to be resourceful enough. Something I talk about in my community is good enough healing. We’re not looking for a grade. You can’t be honor roll. What will allow you to add more joy and pleasure and satisfaction into your life? You can’t get those things without also risking rejection, pain and discomfort. They’re two sides of the same coin.

Virginia

I think for me, there was definitely this issue of —yeah, I’ve done all my own work, but I was suspicious about whether men would have gotten the memo of my amazingness. Does that make sense? You and I are both women on the internet, so we hear from men, which is not usually great when it’s Instagram DMs and troll comments.

I just felt very aware, like, I’m over 40, I’m a divorced mom. These things are not considered hot by general society or whatever. It has turned out to be the complete opposite. None of that has mattered at all. But there was a leap of faith that had to happen where I was like, “I am willing to risk that being their response.” And I had to realize, if that was their response, that would never be a person for me. It’s fine. It’s actually not personal at all. It’s just like, yeah, oh, that’s fine. You go off and find your size two 25 year old, or whatever it is. That’s fine.

Bri

We like to say the that the trash likes to take itself out.

Virginia

Exactly.

Bri

And I will say, too, I have been the heaviest person on every single one of my dates. Maybe not the tallest. But there has been no specific body type or size or person—everybody has been different, and it’s been so healing for me. A man with washboard abs wants to go out with me, like, what? Somebody’s got to tell 16 year old Bri!

Virginia

This is big news.

Bri

I don’t think she’d believe you. And: Just because you have washboard abs doesn’t mean that you are a home run. Right? So it requires us to do a lot of work on our own internalized anti-fatness, too. There’s something about attraction, of being attracted to somebody…but I don’t believe, and I would love to hear your thoughts on this, that you can say, “I’m not attracted to fat people.”

Virginia

No, I agree. I mean, I struggle with that whole conversation. None of our personal preferences developed in a void. You’re not just like, “I happen to like tall men.” No. We like tall men because society’s been telling us to like tall men forever. All of these preferences have this other context. So, I think saying “I’m not attracted to fat people” is a fundamentally problematic statement. I mean, I think it’s true for people because of their social conditioning, but I don’t think it’s an okay thing to put on your dating profile or whatever.

Bri

Something I’ll put on my profiles is “I’m body positive. I need somebody who is also body positive.” Like, if you like body positive, swipe right. If you’re fatphobic or you have a fat fetish, swipe left. Just don’t even. Don’t even bother.

Virginia

And that really does help. I didn’t have a lot of people messaging me that didn’t get that memo. You’ve got to set that boundary.

Bri

I also think when I was younger, I just felt like I was desperate. Like I just had to take anybody who messaged me, even if I didn’t find them attractive or I didn’t feel like we connected. It was like, “Well, they like me, so I have no choice.” Whereas now I’m like, nah, I don’t have to do that.

Virginia

We don’t settle for crumbs. No, thank you.

Bri

And I’m not shy of options.

Virginia

Again, gift of the app! Slash problematic of the apps.

Bri

It’s a good way to reset and get yourself back out there. Something that my dating coach talks about is joy building. So it’s going out and doing things that you have fun doing without the pressure of dating. Because the more out you are, the more likelihood you’ll be able to connect with people. I joined a choir. I went to this book swap that was nearby. I connected with two of the women and we’re gonna go out for coffee. One of them has a son. Like, you just never know!

Virginia

There you go!

Bri

So it’s just, it’s creating a bigger dating pool. But what I will say is that that you need to ask yourself: Do I see myself as somebody who is attractive to be desired? Because if you don’t think you’re desirable, it’s not that you won’t find someone else. Like, we do this all time, right? Of like, “you have to heal yourself before you find that.” Now there are plenty of people who are unhealed and in relationships. The problem is, is that you will still find somebody and not believe it.

Virginia

I mean, it’s like the last season of Bridgerton, where Colin has to show Penelope how beautiful she is. Like that doesn’t fucking work. That’s not the work. And also it’s so patronizing. This idea that your value is contingent on the man witnessing you and adoring you. Like, no thank you.

Bri

It just doesn’t work that way. If somebody compliments you and you’re like, “I don’t agree with you,” you’re going to reject that compliment the same if somebody’s like, “I desire you. I want to be with you. I want to go on a date with you, I want to make out with your face.” Like, no, you don’t. That’s a self esteem and internalized anti-fatness issue.

Virginia

So now, you’re out there, you’re going on dates, you’re having a blast. We love all of this. Are there any rituals you’ve figured out for yourself that help? Because I’m sure there are still butterflies, right? That oh God moment right before you go out the door? Like, how can there not be?

Bri

Every time.

Yeah, so again, I’m sounding like a drug pusher here. But I keep some spare meds in my car in case my nervous system is really activated. And I remember being afraid of that, like, oh my gosh, if I do this, then I’m going to numb myself out, and then I’m not going to be present. The very first date that I went on this year, I didn’t take anything. Afterwards, I was like, Klonopin wouldn’t have ruined anything. Maybe I could have made this a little easier for myself.

Just would have taken the edge off just a bit. And you know, if you’re familiar with Internal Family Systems, IFS work, like, sure, it’s probably a part that could some get work done. But I don’t have to work on that right now.

Virginia

We’re just trying to go to coffee with a guy!

Bri

I just want to get a drink. That’s all.

When I work with somebody, I use the distress scale. So on a scale of 1 to 10, how distressful is it? I was probably at like a 7.5. And I was like, I’m going, I’m doing the thing. I’m going to do it, and I’m going to survive. The Klonopin would have just taken me down to a five.

Virginia

We don’t need to white knuckle this.

Bri

So with body image work, what I would do is like, “Well, let’s not start with the thing that’s a 7.5. Let’s start with a thing that’s like a four, because then when your brain can handle it.” And it’s now going to give you evidence that you can continue. So 10 out of 10 don’t recommend white knuckling.

But I have a huge support system. They call it my podcast. Every time I go on a date, they’re like, “We can’t wait for the voice note of what’s going to happen next. How’d it go? Give us the recap!” And having people who are there to support me is key. Also sharing my location, you always have to be safe.

Virginia

Always. And the guys name.

Bri

Name, picture… actually it’s probably one of my calling cards, I’ll be like, “Do you have a photo I can send to my friends in case you murder me?” And then just see how they respond.

Virginia

It’s a great little litmus test.

I also just have to say, I similarly love the group chat aspect of dating. And I feel so bad that I don’t think many men have that? Just because of again, social conditioning, I think women can have so much more fun dating because no matter how bad the date is, you’re going to text your friends afterwards or send the voice note, and the gifs alone are going to make it feel worth it.

Bri

I remember when I would hear people say, “dating is so much fun!” I was like, what are you doing on a date that’s fun? And I’m starting to have fun now because I’m picking people that I actually feel connected with. I’ve always dated for finding my partner. Right now, that’s not what I’m doing. I’m just like, “Do I think I could have fun hanging out with you, spending some time with you, getting some free drinks?” I pay some of the time. Especially when I’m like there’s not going to be a second one.

Virginia

I’m going to buy my own drinks.

Bri

And it has been fun. It has not been painless. It has not been all 10s. Every experience hasn’t been a 10 out of 10, but I have learned something about myself every time I go out. And that’s the coolest part about this.

Virginia

I love that. Anything else on this topic we haven’t hit on that you want to make sure to really emphasize for folks?

Bri

If the idea of going out on a date right now feels impossible, just start by getting on the app and seeing what happens with your nervous system.

And let men or women or whoever you’re dating connect with you and and just watch and observe the process.

It doesn’t mean it’s going to go anywhere. That’s the other part of this, too. You have a lot of false starts. You’re vibing with somebody, and then the next day they’ve blocked you and you’re like, oh.

Virginia

They just disappear.

Bri

I don’t know if you’ve had this experience, but I have had to start asking now. Like, are you in a committed relationship and cheating on a partner?

Virginia

I realized I had to ask that pretty early on.

Bri

I would be like three days into talking to someone, and they’d be like, “So I just think you should know I’m married.” And I’m like, okay, are you ethically non monogamous?

Virginia

Totally fine, great.

Bri

“No, they don’t know.” Then we’re done. So I’ve put that’s on my profile, too. If you’re cheating, get lost.

Virginia

Absolutely wild. And then I’ve had guys be like “😞.” No! No sad face for you.

Bri

I don’t know if you’ve had this experience of going on a date with a person, and then it not working out. And I will say this has probably been the hardest part for me —actually doing the bless and release. Because I’m such a people pleaser and I hate hurting people’s feelings.

Virginia

Yeah, that’s hard.

Bri

But if you bless and release them, and then they’re cry babies about it…I’m like, no. Confirmed.

Virginia

It was a good call.

I never quite figured out how to do it in person? I end up sending a text to bless and release the day or two after. But I actually think that’s fine. Especially as a woman dating straight men—there’s a safety piece. It is what it is. And if we’ve only had one or two dates, I don’t feel like we’ve earned a face to face over it. It doesn’t warrant a long conversation.

Bri

I don’t owe anyone. I give out what I would want. I’m never just going to block and delete somebody if we didn’t have a good date. I’m going to give you the respect of having that conversation. But it’s not fun. It’s not easy. But it has been worth it, and you learn so much about yourself in this process.

Butter

Virginia

So we wrap up every Burnt Toast with butter, which is our recommendation segment. Do you have some butter for us today?

Bri

Dating has very much become my ADHD obsession. I’m just like,”I’m just doing it all the time now.” Part of my ritual is one of the things my dating coach says in her book, which is called Thank You, More Please. So I made a “thank you, more please” playlist.

Virginia

Oh, that’s so good!

Bri

It’s got hype music for when I am getting ready for a date, or when I’m coming home from a date and I’m feeling myself, and I’m listen to it after I send my friends the podcast episode update. It’s just so empowering and and healing in its own way.

And going back to the body connection, music can be such a somatically healing thing. So if you’re ever feeling dysregulated in your body, and you put music on, you will see, and experience, your body calm down. And so when I’m getting ready for a date, I’m like, alright, I’ve got to pump up that adrenaline. Let’s go. It’s been one of my faves. So if anyone listens to this, please send me some songs to add!

Virginia

I love that so much.

My Butter is a beauty product, which I have talked about a little bit on the newsletter already, but I’m just going to give it another shout out because it’s just coming in clutch for me as we’re navigating winter and all the illnesses. I haven’t been getting enough sleep, because my kids wake up all the time. So I look exhausted, and then I want to not look exhausted. So Tarte makes this eyeliner called Fake Awake, which just goes on your water line of your lower eyelid. It’s like a sort of creamy white peach color, and it just makes your eyes look less exhausted. Which turns out to be like something I really benefit from.

I got the recommendation from Kim France, who writes Girls of a Certain Age, which is a great fashion Substack. And she was like, “This is like every stoner’s favorite eyeliner.” I am not a stoner. Pot is not meant for me. But as someone who is a little bit allergic to her cats and doesn’t get enough sleep, I feel like I often have stoner eyes? And it’s really great.

Fake awake is #5! Shop all Virginia’s makeup here.

Bri

I love that. I’m going to check that out.

Virginia

And, yeah, we could deconstruct forever: Do you need makeup? Of course not. It’s all patriarchy, etc, etc. But also sometimes I just want to look like I slept better than I did.

Bri

Lindley Ashline has a great line for that. She says something like, “We don’t need to feel bad or apologetic when we want to get wear makeup or get Botox or something like that. We can just allow ourselves to recognize ‘I’m going to conform today to the standard.’” Like, it’s a survival skill.

Virginia

I’m curious how you think about that with dating, actually, because I have thought about it a lot. When I was not yet dating, I was really embracing what Emma Copley Eisenberg calls frump fashion. Lots of giant, oversized dresses. No male gaze anywhere, I’m wearing whatever, just comfortable things all the time.

And then when I started dating, it was like, oh, I’m not going to wear that on a date. There is a difference. There is an awareness of the gaze. And I think for me, it’s kind of fun to have both options. It’s kind of fun to play around with it and decide what level of this I want to subscribe to. But also, sometimes I’m like, where’s that line? Like, I just think we all have to find that line. I don’t know.

Bri

I think for me, I am not going to change anything about me for somebody else. So if somebody were to call me today and be like, “Can I FaceTime you?” I’m not going to be like, hold on, let me go put makeup on real quick. This is how I look today. You take what you get, you don’t get upset.

But if I’m going to meet somebody for the first time, I want to get cute. I want to look my best self. And it’s a little bit of a ritual for me, too. I’m going to put my makeup on and I’m going to listen to my music and I’m going to look my hottest, and then I’m going to feel good. And, also know that I’ve gone on a bunch of dates, and these guys have seen me with makeup and without makeup, and their responses have been the same. It’s still “Oh, you’re so beautiful.” And I’m like, “Thanks. I look like a couch troll right now, but I appreciate it.”

Virginia

A hot couch troll. Put that in your bio!

Okay, well, this was so much fun. Thank you so much for coming. Tell folks where we can find you and how we can support your work.

Bri

Thank you so much for having me. This is such an honor, and I was just so excited to talk about it. And just excited to be able to share with with somebody else, who’s in it, and tracking with me. Because I feel like a lot of times people who talk about relationships are people who are in relationships, I’m like, you can’t relate to me. You’ve been married for 75 years.

Virginia

Oh, it’s a different world.

Bri

It is. It is a different world. But what you want is possible. It starts with healing you first. And it doesn’t mean that it has to be perfect. It just has to be good enough, and that you believe that you are worthy of love and intimacy and going on fun, flirty dates in the body that you have right now. And if you don’t, then we start with that.

So with that, I’m an ADHD queen, so I’m a hot mess. So I would say the best place to learn how to work with me is on my Instagram. It’s usually the most up to date way of how you can find me. I do have a podcast called the Body Grievers Club. We are casual podcasters, so haven’t posted anything current at the time of this recording, but hoping to become more consistent with that. But we do have some episodes on sex, love and dating while fat:

And I have a Substack which, again, also hoping to get a little more consistent with that.

Virginia

Thank you so much for being here! This was absolutely delightful.

Bri

Thank you so much for having me.

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies.

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Farideh.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!

BONUS: Virginia's Route 29 Stalker Case (Part 2)