Julia Shaw and Rosamund Urwin on the Science Behind Humanity's Dark Side
Apr 19, 2019
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Join Julia Shaw, a German-Canadian psychologist and author of "Making Evil", alongside journalist Rosamund Urwin from The Sunday Times, as they delve into humanity's dark side. They challenge societal narratives around masculinity and violence, question the nature of evil, and discuss the unsettling allure of aggression. The conversation highlights how AI mirrors societal biases and emphasizes the importance of compassion in understanding misjudged behaviors like creepiness and aggression. A thought-provoking exploration of morality and empathy awaits!
Labeling individuals as 'evil' hinders our self-reflection on moral complexities and the capacity for wrongdoing within ourselves.
Our fascination with violence in media reflects an instinctual curiosity that allows us to confront fears without real-life consequences.
Ordinary people can commit heinous acts and also display potential for heroism, challenging us to recognize and embrace our own capabilities.
Deep dives
The Concept of Evil
The discussion centers around the provocative idea that the term 'evil' may not be a useful concept. Labeling someone as evil distances us from recognizing our own potential for wrongdoing. Instead of viewing evil as a binary state that separates individuals from ourselves, it is more productive to understand that humans are capable of both good and bad actions. This perspective encourages introspection and a willingness to confront our own moral complexities and potential failings.
Human Fascination with Violence
Humans exhibit a natural curiosity about violence, manifesting through our consumption of horror films, true crime stories, and violent video games. This fascination can be attributed to the safe exploration of our fears, allowing us to engage with terrifying scenarios without real-world consequences. The concept of 'rubbernecking' at accidents exemplifies our instinctual draw toward harm and chaos. This intrigue reveals a deeper understanding of our nature, as we acknowledge our capacity for violence while often choosing to disengage from real-life manifestations of it.
The Banality of Murder
Contrary to popular belief, many murders stem from mundane circumstances rather than complex motives or premeditation. The discussion highlights how significant violent acts frequently arise from relatively trivial disputes and impulsive decisions rather than elaborate schemes. This 'banality of murder' challenges sensationalized portrayals of killers in media, emphasizing that ordinary people can commit heinous acts when situations spiral out of control. By demystifying the nature of murder, we are encouraged to reflect on our own behaviors and the consequences of seemingly small choices.
The Banality of Heroism
Just as ordinary individuals can commit atrocious acts, they also possess the potential for heroism under certain circumstances. The conversation suggests that acts of bravery and kindness are often downplayed, as society tends to idolize extraordinary heroes while overlooking everyday acts of courage among 'regular' people. The idea of 'not meeting your heroes' implies that we often over-idealize those who perform great deeds while forgetting that we, too, have the capacity to act heroically in our daily lives. Recognizing this potential in ourselves may inspire us to take more responsibility for our actions and contributions to society.
The Role of Technology and the Internet
The impact of technology, particularly social media, has fundamentally altered how we express anger and engage in discourse. The anonymity provided by the internet allows individuals to express violent or aggressive sentiments without facing direct consequences, which can exacerbate existing biases and lead to harmful interactions. The conversation underscores the importance of rehumanizing online interactions and considering the implications of our words. By setting guidelines for respectful online communication, such as not saying anything you'd avoid saying in person, we can foster healthier dialogue and reduce instances of aggression.
In this episode of the Intelligence Squared podcast we were joined by Julia Shaw the psychologist and author of Making Evil, alongside Rosamund Urwin of the Sunday Times, in a wide-ranging exploration of evil — why do humans do and think bad things?
