00:01 - Ad (Ad) Anne Ganguzza, you are a true gem. Okay, I am a voice actor, been in the business over 15 years, eight of those full time but, honest to goodness, until discovering the VO Boss Podcast this year, I feel like I've been getting away with murder. I don't even know how I've been as successful as I have been without all the strategies and perspectives and predictions that you make about our industry. I feel like I've been in VO College for like the past six, seven months listening to the VO Boss podcast. It's just incredible and I can't thank you enough. I love you, I love your co-hosts, I love your guests. It's just so full of information that I can put into action for my business and just please keep doing what you're doing, because I feel like I'm taking my business to the next level the boss level.

01:03 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Hey boss, talent Anne Ganguzza here with a quick shout out to those who are a little freaked out about marketing. VO BOSS Blast is your secret weapon, making your marketing manageable. Your voice deserves to be heard. Join us at vo boss.com and start your marketing campaign today is the Boss Level marketing campaign. Today, it's time to take your business to the next level, the boss level.

01:30 - Intro (Announcement) These are the premier business owner strategies and successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a boss a VO boss. Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza.

01:44 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Hey everyone, Welcome to the VO Boss Podcast and the Boss Money Talk Series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and I am so happy to be here again with our resident money gal, Danielle Famble. Hey Danielle, hey Anne, how are you?

02:00 - Danielle Famble (Guest) I'm good, I'm good. How are you?

02:02 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) I am good. You know, it's been a busy week of auditioning, coaching, working, submitting auditions, and I happened to reach out to my agent and it made me think about our series about money and I thought it would be great to talk about the whole agent aspect managers, pay-to-plays, the whole agent aspect, managers, pay-to-plays and about financials when we work with said companies, people. I think there's a lot of myths out there for people that are just getting into the industry or even people who are in the industry. They have a lot of beliefs about managers and pay-to-plays and should I, shouldn't I? What's fair, what's not fair?

02:44 I thought it'd be a great time to talk about that today.

02:46 - Danielle Famble (Guest) Yeah, that's actually really important because these agents and managers are pay-to-plays they're all businesses, right? So they are working within the business model that they have set up for themselves and businesses have costs and so to work with a business, there is a cost there and you, as the VO boss running your own business, you have to think about the cost that you would be paying, the business expenses you'd be paying for having these relationships. So, yeah, it's really important.

03:14 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Well, let's start actually. Let's start with, let's say, somebody's just getting into the industry, and I know a lot of myths about people that just get into the industry. They believe that they need to be able to get an agent right away. And so we can start there to dispel some of those myths. And, by the way, I will say myself personally, I was working full time in the industry for about four years before I got my first agent.

03:36 Oh wow, yeah, mostly because I was doing a lot of non-broadcast work. And so agents, their business, as we were just discussing, right, and businesses are in business to make money. And so if we think about an agent, where is the money right for the agent? How does the agent make money? Well, they get a percentage right of the jobs that they cast and opportunities that they send to us. And if we book that job because they provided us with that opportunity and negotiated on our behalf, they then get a certain percentage of that money and their business model, like any business, right, we want to remain in business, so it behooves them to make money right, to get bookings and to get jobs. And so I guess, Danielle, first of all let me ask you, I mean, in dispelling the myth, I mean, did you get an agent right away when you first got into the business, or what was your entrance into the business?

04:35 - Danielle Famble (Guest) So my entrance I actually came from a musical theater background and I had representation sending me out on auditions for shows, for theater shows, and that person also did rep people who were doing voiceover, who were doing on camera. So I basically kind of moved within that organization from being on stage to being behind the microphone. So in that respect I did start out with representation and then actually moved to a different agent who specialized specifically in voiceover. So that was my trajectory. But to your point and I think this is actually really important, depending on what you're wanting to do, like what genres that you are going into and really like putting your focus in, you may or may not need an agent, especially like with non-broadcast, for example.

05:27 You can get a lot of that work on your own with your own marketing and things like that. So you may not need an agent and there may not be agents who are really focusing in that specific niche to go to and work with them. So I think the question then becomes for the individual VO boss what is your business model? Are you wanting to do more commercials? Are you wanting to do non-broadcast? Are you wanting to do animation? Really, depending on what genres you're really targeting, depends on if you need or it would work best for you to have an agent or representation. I think a lot of people when you hear that they want to work with an agent, it's probably because they want to do commercials mostly, or animation.

06:09 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Exactly, exactly. And I'm always stressing to my students that are just coming to me, that are new to the industry, that in reality, I mean you don't need an agent if you're not getting into broadcast right away. I mean you can acquire an agent later on or at a certain point, and most agents, I would say, are only really concerned with broadcast. Why? Because they get paid more.

06:32 It's as simple as that it's as simple as that right it's the money, because broadcast they can get paid based upon the job and where and how often it airs, because they'll get paid each and every time that happens. For non-broadcast it's kind of a one and done. Now all agents are not created equal. I mean there are some agents that are specializing in specific genres. Now I don't know of any agent that really specifies in an e-learning genre, but that's because why it's non-broadcast and it doesn't necessarily behoove them right to focus on that, because it's a one-and-done sort of thing. So the amount of money they're going to make on a non-broadcast job versus a broadcast where they're going to pay royalties, residuals, all that good stuff, is minimal.

07:17 And now I do have an agent that I book a lot of corporate work. I mean they're not going to say no, right, and I'm sure it's working with a company that also books broadcast style commercials and that sort of thing. So they also like, oh, I need a little internal training video or I need a corporate video that's going to be on my YouTube channel, and so I will get those jobs from my agent as well. But to be quite honest, I mean it's not as exciting as if I booked a national commercial. Sure.

07:46 - Danielle Famble (Guest) Yeah.

07:46 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) The money. There is obviously much better there. So that is with agents, right? Well, let's discuss pay-to-plays, right? Because there's a lot of people who are like, oh, we should just direct market, how do I get opportunities? And a lot of people, when they first start out, want to talk about pay-to-plays and so pay-to-plays and so pay-to-plays, as their name suggests. Right is, we are going to pay so that we can play or get jobs and auditions, and so we pay a fee and, depending on the pay-to-play site, they have different business models. So you pay one fee for a particular amount of auditions or a particular level. At this point it used to just be one fee where, oh, you're on the site and you get auditions, and now they've kind of really diversified and have different levels many of them and so, depending on the amount that you pay, you get a different amount of opportunities.

08:36 - Danielle Famble (Guest) Or you get the opportunities at like a staggered time depending. But yes, exactly Like for all of these different companies, as you're saying, they all have a different business model. So really the question becomes like are you willing to subscribe to that company's business model as they have it set forth? You don't have to. There are certain pay to play sites I'm not on because I don't agree or want to participate in that company's business model. It really then becomes a business decision for me and for my business how can I best position myself to win? And if it means that I'm going to be signed to a particular agent or on certain rosters or pay-to-play sites or those kind of things, it really becomes a question for me of like, how do I want to position myself to have my business do the best that it possibly can? And that's going to change. It might change that I change to a different tier at a pay-to-play site or I just no longer use that one at all.

09:36 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Business models change and that I have seen evolve through the years, because back in oh gosh, I want to say about 2006, that's when I joined my first pay-to-play, which was Voice 123. They have since evolved and grown and changed their business model to now have levels. But in the beginning it used to just be one level and you would set up your profile and based on that profile and the things that you selected in that profile, you would get opportunities for the auditions and you would get those jobs. There was no other than that one feed that they collected for the membership. They didn't collect any additional monies for that. And then I would say, maybe a couple of years later, another one. And well, I should say Voice123 was the first like official voiceover pay to play.

10:21 Prior to that there was like Freelancer you know, Odesk, and those were just freelance type jobs that everybody would just bid on. And actually at that point there was a particular fee which was called an escrow fee, right, that you would pay the company if you wanted to make sure that you got paid, because the biggest issue with freelance work or doing independent contract work, and especially when it's online, is not getting paid. And so as that evolved in the workplace or online, it became a big thing and so companies and this is even before Voice123 and Voicescom, but they started to offer a service called escrow service, where they would pay you and you would be assured that you would get paid and then you would pay them a fee for that and it was called an escrow fee. And so that was adopted early on by the freelance companies. And the thing about all the freelance companies is it became very popular right for freelancers to get work, and so this whole kind of what people today call the race to the bottom right underbidding that's how everybody got their work on a lot of those. And it just became this crazy kind of a model where you know you would bid on something and then somebody would come in and bid a lower price and get the job. And so it became this mindset where it was like, well, I guess if I bid lower I'll get the job. And I think that's what started with the pay-to-plays people talking about them as being bottom feeders right, because people would start to underbid. It was very similar to the model of freelance Odesk, all those models in the beginning.

11:59 And then I think, after a few years and actually it was a few years because for a while Voicescom and Voice123 were the only two in the game and they competed with one another and they both had one level, and I remember Voice123, because they were out first, were always, I think, what people considered to be the standard, and they had a lot more memberships. And then I think Voicescom started kind of playing around with how they would offer jobs, and so they, if I remember in the very beginning, were the first ones. I don't believe Voice123 ever offered anything like an escrow service, but Voicescom started to offer you could pay escrow so that you can make sure that you got paid, and then you would pay them a certain percentage of the fee, and that was prior to any of their managed jobs of today, and so that was always a choice, so you could choose to take your chances and accept the job. And they were hands off, like if you got paid, you got paid, if you didn't, you didn't. They weren't really responsible. And then they offered the escrow, in which case they said we'll pay you and you can be assured you'll get your money.

13:04 And then, ultimately, I think the competition started happening once more. Pay-to-plays came about, like Bodalgo, and there's a couple other ones, voice Over Planet, et cetera, et cetera, and then the whole thing began. And, of course, it's always a point of contention, with everybody out on the forums talking about is it fair, is it right for them to double dip or triple dip, especially with managed jobs? And, danielle, I'd love to hear your opinion on this Double dipping, triple dipping. What are your thoughts? Is it a thing, is it bad? Is it illegal? Is it good? What are your thoughts?

13:37 - Danielle Famble (Guest) I mean, it's definitely a thing. I go back to my stance of this is the business model of the company that you are or are not choosing to do business with. If you don't agree with it, you don't have to participate in it. Like, for example, for me I am on Voice123. I'm not on Voicescom because I don't agree with their business model, so it is a thing. I don't agree with their business model, so it is a thing.

14:02 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) I don't know that it's illegal.

14:04 - Danielle Famble (Guest) I mean, where are the laws saying that they can't do it? But if you don't agree with it, then you can just take yourself and your dollars out of the equation. And anyone who does agree with it or wants to use that platform for their business model, they're free to do it. And I think also for me platform for their business model they're free to do it. And I think also for me when I look at agents or managers or pay-to-plays, it really is. Is my business financially able to recoup the costs that I'm putting into, for example, the pay-to-play? Am I making enough money that the amount of money I'm spending, the tier that I'm on on voice one, two, three, for example is that a good return on my investment? I think that's the same thing for being with an agent, same thing for being on a pay to play site.

14:49 Is this is a business expense? And does my business have the capacity to recoup the amount of money that I'm spending, because I look at all of these relationships as a cost of doing business? And what is the return on investment If I'm spending because I look at all of these relationships as a cost of doing business, and what is the return on investment. If I'm not booking enough and I'm not making enough money to cover the amount in commission that I'm paying, for example, then maybe I need to go and look at how do I get my business to a place where the ROI will be positive. So really you can agree with all these different businesses or not, but really the question is does your business have the ability to get a positive return on investment for the amount of money spent, because it is a business expense when you are working with these companies.

15:33 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Absolutely. And I think, bosses out there, the one thing to really think about is just mind your own business and make your own decisions on whether you want to work with other businesses, and you can certainly get online and contribute to all the all the discussion and all the hype. And is it double dipping? Is it triple dipping? Is it right? Is it wrong In reality? Like people get so like up in arms about the state of pay to plays but in reality, just okay, let them do their business. And you're right, I mean, I am not part of pay-to-plays because, well, some pay-to-plays because I don't agree with their business ethics. So when managed jobs came about with voices, that's when I think, really, everybody started to say that there was double and triple dipping. And I guess you can say that, but honestly, it's kind of like well, I'm not going to stress myself out over it, I'm just not going to use it if I don't agree with it.

16:31 And managed jobs if you think about it and I want to talk to you about management companies too managed jobs is similar. You know, if you think Voicescom, they're charging a fee for your membership and then, in addition to that, if you decide to take a managed job. They're going to handle all the negotiation of the pricing, they're going to handle all the communication with the client, they're going to handle all of that stuff on behalf of the client, and so there is a fee for that. And of course, one of the big things was well, how much is that fee? But in reality, is there regulation on that? There really isn't yet. And so I mean, if you wanted to get into technicalities, have they done anything illegal, right, by charging a certain percentage for a management fee? No, not really. It's a business model. So if they decided to charge 50% management fee, well, that's their business model. And of course, that's a business model as long as we know about it. We can agree or not agree to it, right?

17:18 And as long as we know about it, and I do believe that any company that I do business with and I'm pretty sure it's the same with you, danielle I want them to be transparent.

17:28 And if I feel that a company or an organization has not been transparent with me. That's when I back off and I say you know what? I have a choice here. I mean, goodness gracious, I didn't get out of the corporate world so that I could continue to do things that I didn't want to do or invest in things that I didn't want to invest. I mean, this is why I am my own business, right, I make my decisions that are best for my business, and I can say you know what? I don't need to subscribe to that, I don't need to be a part of that model or have them as my client, and so it's as simple as that.

17:58 I move on my merry way and I don't let it stress me out, but it's good to know from the get-go. If I feel like they're not being transparent, then there's not much they can do to win back my trust. I don't know, danielle, if you're the same way, but that's my personal take on things. If you lose my trust years ago, from the beginning, I don't know if you'll get me back.

18:20 - Danielle Famble (Guest) I think it's also just about like really making sure that you are an informed consumer, because you are then the consumer and they are a business partner in a way. Yeah, so making sure that you are informed. If you aren't asking the questions that you need to ask, or don't partner with these people until you know the answers, also try it. Try it out and see if it works for you and if there is a positive ROI for trying it out or not. But for me, there are certain business partnerships that I just haven't entered into because I don't agree with the business model. Now they can change. My business model has changed. They can change their business model. I mean, we saw, like, the different changes that have happened with pay-to-plays over the last several years. But if you don't agree to it, there are so many other options. That's a great thing is that there's so many other options?

19:10 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) I'm so glad that you brought that up, that, yes, the business model can change, like our business models change too, and you're right. I'm glad you brought that up because it makes me think about when you talk about transparency in a company. Right, I had a personal relationship with certain members in the community that owned businesses that I did business with, and so I think you're absolutely right. When it comes business to business, that's completely separate from, let's say, a personal relationship and maybe that trust issue that I might have had like. Are they ethical? Are they running their company ethically? And do I believe that they're telling me?

19:42 There's a lot of businesses out there that you know they make promises, and it's one of those things that I think you have to really sit down and do believe.

19:51 We're going to do this, we're going to change our business model, and so is it something that you believe that the company has integrity, that they have morals and ethics and that, again, is probably another podcast episode, but that can have everything to do with. But the fact is is that many of the companies and the vendors that we work with have business models and we choose whether or not to partner with them. So that brings me to you know, speaking of managed jobs, right, what about managers? And I will tell you right now, I do not work with a manager right now, because the majority of my work is on the non-broadcast side and I've always been very adept at getting my own work, and so I've not really felt like I've needed or maybe ever thought a manager would be something that would help my business, although I certainly don't discount it. But I know that you work with a manager, so let's talk about the financial aspect of management.

20:44 - Danielle Famble (Guest) Yeah, so, like you said, I do work with a management company and it's a different business model than agents, like we talked about in the beginning of this episode. So, agents the job that they have booked you on and they negotiate on your behalf they're getting a percentage or a commission from that job With management companies and it really depends on which management company you're working with. But I'll just make a general statement. Really, what they're wanting, that business model is more like managing your career, and they are getting a percentage of your entire book of business, as in everything that you have booked, with or without them actually being the ones who have negotiated it or presented that opportunity to you. And there's a financial implication to that as well, because for me, I look at what is my book of business outside of this relationship with this management company.

21:35 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) So anything that I get on my own anything that I get through my agents.

21:40 - Danielle Famble (Guest) What does that look like and am I willing to participate in the relationship with a management company and is the return on that investment high enough and positive so that I can continue doing what I'm doing and having the robust business that I'm hoping to have For me, having the robust business that I'm hoping to have For me? I look at that from a financial aspect every single month and I am detailed with it because this is it's a business relationship, and is it worth it to me to have the access to the opportunities from this management company, along with the other things that I'm getting with having the relationship with them, getting to speak to people who are incredibly knowledgeable, asking questions about things that I don't know Like? Is that relationship worth the amount of money spent on this commission of my entire book of business?

22:31 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Sure, I was just going to say I think there might be some confusion as to what the responsibilities of a management company are, right, do they take you by the hand you personally, danielle and say okay, here, we think you should work with this agency or we're going to get you job? I imagine that management companies, like overall, have a scope. Or does each management company operate differently, like, do you get personalized attention? Are they taking you by the hand and saying here, danielle, I think you should do this and we're going to give you all these opportunities in this genre, et cetera?

23:01 - Danielle Famble (Guest) I think for me my mindset with working with a management company, working with an agent at the end of the day I look at it sort of like a pyramid or tiered. I am running the business, I am minding the business that pays me, I am running this business, and so I look at this as relationships, not necessarily that I'm abdicating my responsibilities of running the business that pays me to somebody else and they can sort of take me by the hand and deal with it. Personally, I don't feel that that is the business model that I am trying to run for myself. So I think for me it's more about what are the relationships that can be made through the connection of being with this management company not here.

23:47 Just what are they?

23:48 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) doing for you? Yeah, exactly.

23:50 - Danielle Famble (Guest) Wherever you send me, I will go. It's a partnership and for me, I believe that the way that I can best create the business that I'm trying to create is to partner with people who are much more knowledgeable about certain genres or connections than I am. But I am a working participant in that relationship and not allowing someone to sort of take me wherever I need to go.

24:15 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) It's kind of like outsourcing. There's so many ways in which it's similar. It's like outsourcing because you want to be afforded opportunities that you may or may not be able to get on your own.

24:24 And that's the fee that you are paying them. I know a lot of people are like but how are they different from an agency? Well, an agency is one agency that has relationships with clients, right? Or has relationships. Maybe not relationships, but they establish relationships with clients to get job opportunities to then pass on to you. Management companies don't necessarily get specific custom, I would say, opportunities just for you, but they also develop relationships and have opportunities. That would be, I would say, a more broad spectrum than just one agent, right, it could be multiple agents, it could be multiple business relationships and those are the opportunities you are, quote unquote, paying a service fee for.

25:11 - Danielle Famble (Guest) And hopefully the idea is that they can coexist and work together, so like the agent model can coexist and work with the management model, so that it's not necessarily a replication, it's almost the Venn diagram of it all, and so there really should be sort of not necessarily just overlap, but an expansion of well, this is what the agent does, and these are the jobs that I get through my agency, and this is what the management company does, and these are the type of jobs that I get through the management company, and also I'm my own business too, so these are the jobs that I'm negotiating for myself and finding through pay to plays or through SEO, or through just the auditions that I have, or my own marketing word of mouth, those kinds of things. And so the idea is that all of these things are working together and you are utilizing the business relationships for each business that you choose to partner with, and at that point then you've built, hopefully, this robust business that isn't dependent on just one business model or one relationship.

26:13 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) I love that you just narrowed it down to just relationships, because in reality there's a lot of people that would say like, well, I did all the work in getting that job, why should I pay someone? Why should I do? And in reality it's really all about the relationship right. The better you can work with as a partner and the more income that you can bring to them, the more they're going to try to bring to you, and I think that relationship is a cycle One feeds the other, and I like that.

26:40 - Danielle Famble (Guest) You just said work with them, because a lot of people, I think sometimes, especially when you're wanting to get any sort of representation, agent, management what have you? It's like you're working for them, you're doing things for them, or they should do something for you, exactly. And this is a it's got to be a partnership. Do something for you, Exactly, and this is a it's got to be a partnership.

26:59 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Yeah, absolutely yeah. Whether you're talking manager, you're talking agent, maybe, I don't know, pay to plays I'm not sure. If you call that, I mean a partnership.

27:11 - Danielle Famble (Guest) really, I don't know if you call it a partnership exactly. I think it's a tool, it can be a resource, for sure.

27:14 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Yeah, yeah, but I would definitely consider agents and managers to be relationship partnership. Pay-to-plays are a slightly different model where I wouldn't say it's as customized. It's about as customized as it can get by the algorithm that gets you the opportunities.

27:28 - Danielle Famble (Guest) Yeah and again, all of this is really about the business expense of it all, because all of this costs money. So if your business is not in a place where this expense is bringing you a positive ROI, I would go back to training making sure your demos are up to date, making sure that you are the person who's going to be able to book those jobs, so that you would be able to pay these commissions and everything else. Because this really is about is the work coming? Are you able to book those jobs that you can make the money?

28:00 to pay the commission to all those things Exactly.

28:02 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) And it's funny because I was thinking about that, as it's kind of the beginning of the month and I have to pay my VAs. You know, it's kind of like every month, boom, I pay them, I pay them, I pay them, and it's like this expense that I've gotten used to where it's like, oh okay, there's my outgoing expenses, I do it every month. And the funny thing is is like I think about myself, you know, 20, some odd years ago, when it would be like, oh my God, I can't afford to put this kind of money out every month for an assistant. And the funny thing is is I do it without blinking right now. You know I pay my assistants on a monthly basis and boom, and immediately it just and so I've got that. I don't know. I've got that cycle going where I'm getting a return on my investment and so I have the money to be able to use that as an expense every month.

28:44 - Danielle Famble (Guest) Absolutely. I was actually thinking the same thing because I very recently paid my assistant. It's like automation yeah exactly, and it's one of those things where I think about and I'm constantly I mean I'm so tuned into the financials of my business to the point that we're actually remaking our back-end system.

29:03 We use a completely separate back-end system like a CRM system, and one of the things that was most important to me is that the reporting was dialed in, because I want to know how much is coming in and all of that is coming from work that has been booked from me, my relationships with the agents, managers, my own clients, all of those things it has to have a positive ROI for me to be able to keep this business running, yeah yeah, good stuff.

29:29 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Oh my gosh, I feel like we could have five episodes on that. Yeah, all right. Well, thank you so much, danielle. I cannot wait to talk to you on our next podcast. In the meantime, big shout out for All right. Well, thank you so much, danielle. I cannot wait to talk to you on our next podcast. In the meantime, big shout out for our sponsor, ipdtl. You, too, can connect and make money like bosses like Danielle and myself. Find out more at IPDTLcom. You guys have an amazing week and look at that ROI, and we will see you next week.

29:55 - Danielle Famble (Guest) Have a good one everyone Bye, bye.

29:58 - Intro (Announcement) Join us next week for another edition of VO Boss with your host, Anne Ganguzza, and take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at vobosscom and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies and new ways to rock your business like a boss. Redistribution with permission. Coast-to-coast connectivity via IPDTL.

Episode 31: The interwebs are here to stay.