Debate: Clive Stafford-Smith vs Andrew Gold - A Socialist UTOPIA is a DANGEROUS FANTASY

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What does a real-world human rights lawyer make of utopian socialism — the dream of a perfectly just society? In this fiery, idea-by-idea showdown, Clive Stafford-Smith joins Andrew Gold to interrogate the promise and pitfalls of building paradise by design. Clive has spent decades on the frontlines defending those the state would rather forget. Tonight, he brings that lived experience into a no-nonsense debate on power, punishment, equality and the human cost of political ideals.

Is utopian socialism a noble roadmap — or a seductive trap that ignores how people really behave? Can radical equality coexist with freedom of conscience and speech? Where do good intentions end and coercion begin? Clive pushes back hard on easy answers, challenging the moral shortcuts that both left and right are tempted to take. Expect sharp cross-examination, uncomfortable hypotheticals, and practical tests drawn from his cases: what happens to justice, due process and human dignity when a “perfect society” tries to enforce virtue?

We probe the core dilemmas: Who decides the common good? What safeguards protect dissidents and minorities when the majority wants utopia now? And if punishment is meant to rehabilitate, what does that mean inside any system promising heaven on earth? Clive’s stance is principled, provocative and relentlessly humane — forcing us to confront the gap between political theory and the messy reality of human beings.

If you’ve ever wondered whether utopia can survive contact with courts, prisons and ordinary human frailty, this episode is for you. Jump in, argue with us, and bring your best ideas.

💬 Tell us in the comments: What’s the non-negotiable safeguard any just society must keep — even if it slows the path to “utopia”?

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Watch the full podcast here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0CQVL46Wj0&t=26s

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