Join Malcolm and Simone Collins as they explore and rank religious clothing from various faiths around the world. In this engaging discussion, they analyze the practical, cultural, and spiritual aspects of religious garments, from Mormon temple garments to Sikh turbans. The couple offers unique insights into how religious clothing impacts adherents' daily lives, community cohesion, and interactions with the broader society.

This comprehensive review covers:

* The practicality and symbolism of various religious garments

* How clothing reinforces religious identity and commitment

* The balance between tradition and modernity in religious dress

* The role of gender in religious clothing mandates

* The economic impact of religious clothing within communities

* The effectiveness of religious clothing in preserving cultural identity

Whether you're interested in comparative religion, fashion history, or cultural anthropology, this video provides a fascinating look at the intersection of faith and clothing across different religious traditions.

Speaker 3: [00:00:00] Hello, everyone!

I am excited to be here with you today. Today, we are going to be discussing various types of religious clothing and various rules around religious clothing. And we are going to be ranking them from a utility and fashion. And when I say utility, I don't just mean in their daily, you know, whatever, but in terms of how they frame people of that religion to outsiders, how they keep people in religions, how they push people out of religions.

And discuss more our own sort of beliefs around, you know, religious fashion and stuff like that and what I think, you know, makes sense to mandate, not mandate. And that's where we got the title for the episode, Bad Habits. Because I wanted to make a habit joke, which is a name for one of the Catholic,

Speaker 4: necessary. Yeah. And that's clothing. But I think more importantly. When people look at religious clothing, they often think that's weird or that doesn't look good or whatever. And, and we're not judging this. I mean, we may have comments about the aesthetics, but the most important thing about religious clothing is its function, [00:01:00] and sometimes the function is literally logistical.

It's protective, it's practical, it's durable. Often it, it has a much more Important framing and symbolic function. And so we want to look at that and how, see how effective it is or not. Malcolm and I are going to have plenty of disagreements, I'm sure.

Speaker 3: That's an easy one to start with because you know, you used to live with Mormons, you know a lot about them.

Speaker 4: Right. Mormons are most famous for their garments. These are underwear. They're church sanctioned. They have special, like, patterns on them that are important. But the most important thing is that they are basically shorts and shirts.

That Sort of require you to wear modest clothing because if you don't, they will show. So I'll

Speaker 3: word this a bit differently because I think that you're sort of beating around the bush. They are like an undershirt and underpants. They have special symbols on them and lines on them.

That represent specific religious things to Mormons.

You have to wear them all the time, except when you are swimming [00:02:00] or exercising, which creates a An interesting positive externality for the Mormon community, because everyone, especially women who want to dress more centrally for mainstream society, have a sort of a very strong reason outside of just the exercise itself to exercise regularly, because it's an excuse to not wear your garments.

I would note that this actually makes garments. Fairly loosey goosey from the perspective of most religious wear. So if you contrast garments with something like a Kirpan, you'd be the knife that Sikhs have to carry. Sikhs are not allowed to even take it off in the shower. You know, all the time.

All the time. Yeah, these are very durable

Speaker 4: knives. Like if you want to get a good knife, you should get that kind of knife because you can shower with it. You can wear it everywhere.

Speaker 3: So, yeah. So the cure pants. Yeah. So, so, The Mormons, on the other hand you know, they, they, they're actually pretty because people [00:03:00] always compare their religious fashion with the urban monoculture, where whatever you want, whenever you want.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Speaker 3: Instead of with other religious fashion. When they're trying to decide how strict it is one of the more annoying things about garments is the ways that you have to dispose of them. You, I believe, used to need to send them to like a garment disposal facility because they're considered sacred in a way, right?

Like you can't just cut. You

Speaker 4: only wear and you, you don't wear them as a child. You wear them after you are endowed, like sort of after you go through a very special secret initiation ceremony with the church as a young adult that is a major act of commitment. Yeah. So.

Speaker 3: I was just going to say, because I hadn't finished my last point, the way that you dispose of garments has changed recently.

Where now it is actually much easier to dispose of them and you can cut them apart in a certain way. And there's only certain parts of it that needs to be disposed of super carefully and the rest can be burned. But anyway, you were saying Simone,

Speaker 4: you, you only wear garments after you get endowed which is a sort of very, very secret, [00:04:00] important commitment ceremony that young adults go through.

You have to be endowed. For example, to enter the temple and attend a wedding ceremony, including your own. So it's, it is related to ceremonies and I like personally, I think garments are awesome because a big part of the Mormon church is going out and trying to convert people and it's hard to. I, I think build rapport with people and build a lot of commonality with outsiders if you're dressed super strange but garments are a way for you to be approachable and seem normal while still everyday reminding yourself that Self that you're very committed to your religion.

'cause wearing special underwear does remind you of that. Yeah. That

Speaker 3: is worth elevating what you just said, which is a unique aspect of Mormon religious clothing is that it is something that has a few unique functions when contrast with other religious clothing. It allows Mormons to quickly identify other Mormon.

But people who aren't Mormons, or aren't very familiar [00:05:00] with Mormons, may not notice that the person is wearing religious clothing. Yeah, that's a

Speaker 4: really interesting, as you typically can tell someone is wearing garments, or likely wearing garments if you know what to look for. Which is cool. It's like

Speaker 3: a secret handshake.

But it also means that you're not as othered from mainstream society as you would be within other religious communities, which you would see as a

Speaker 4: strict to downside.

Speaker 3: Yeah. I see that as a downside because it causes you to look less like, I think there are ways that you can build religious codes that allow you to interact with mainstream society, but still other yourself.

A great example would be the conservative Jew

The, the yarmulke thing that conservative Jews wear where they can wear a suit but you still immediately know they're Jewish and they know when they're walking into a room and everyone else knows they're Jewish.

So they're not breaking mainstream societal dress codes. But they do look different. Whereas with Mormons, it's much more covert. Which It has some upsides and downsides. You're right about that. [00:06:00] Now, I'd ask you, what are your thoughts on the women's dress in the more extreme warmest movement?

What's it called? Yeah.

Speaker 4: So if you think of FLDS clothing, we're talking those weird pastel dresses with somewhat puffy Sleeves that go like very long sleeves and they're just extremely unflattering dresses. I personally hate them I think they look terrible. They certainly don't attract me to the mormon church at all

Speaker 3: No, I I agree and I do not think they look bad Pious either they this is the problem.

If you can trust them, we'll go over the Bruderhof in a second. Right. Or the Amish, which have somewhat similar outfits with what the women in those communities where, when I look at women in those communities, it gives me this sense of piousness. But when I look at women in this style of dress that we're going to have on screen here

the.

The extremist Mormons wear. To me, it just looks like a frumpy status symbol sort of thing. Well, and they

Speaker 4: also don't look practical in terms of, you know, a woman who should be looking after quite a few [00:07:00] children. Right. They, they look like they, Might be kind of difficult to move around in that they're more fabric to clean.

It just doesn't nothing there makes sense to me.

Speaker 3: Yeah and I and I think that They would they might drive people away from the Mormon Church More than other things because they are other ring in a way that So this is an important thing about religious clothing. Are they othering in a way that sort of calls you out as above other people?

Or are they othering in a way that calls you out as below other people? And I feel like this outfit seems to be othering in a way that stations these people as looking below other people in a way. Whereas an example of othering in a way that makes you look above other people Catholics are great with this in terms of their religious wear.

It's very much like you see, especially like a Catholic, you know,

priest or somebody in you know, some of the, the other things that they have, like the cinturas and the albs and, and it looks very like, okay, this [00:08:00] is somebody who's got some sort of like a special status.

Speaker 4: Yeah, well, and there's, I think there's a reason why so many sci fi costumes appear to be inspired by Catholic clothing.

It is distinct, it is other, it is dune, you know? Yeah,

Speaker 3: yeah. Well, and some of the righty Jewish groups, I think, do a pretty good job with this. Agreed, yes. But we'll get to those. Yeah, we'll get to those in a second. Alright, so, what is your final take on Mormon clothing before we go to the next one?

Speaker 4: If I was going to grade them an A, B, C, D, F, I would put them in a solid B pretty good, but not exceptional.

Speaker 3: Yeah I would say one theological thing I like about their clothing is that they don't do a lot of crosses. I've always found crosses to be rather ghoulish. I mean, it's, it's, it's like literally a torture device that, you know, killed the son of God, right?

You know, I His worst

Speaker 4: moment, yeah. I mean, like, if, if I had a life that people were remembering, [00:09:00] would I want them to remember me by? The worst day of my life or

Speaker: maybe something else.

Speaker 4: Maybe that time I healed a blind kid. I don't

Speaker 3: know. Yeah. We couldn't be anything else. So let's now go to the Amish. Tell me what you think of the Amish

Speaker 4: yeah I love Amish clothing. I think that it is tasteful. I think that it is practical. It is clearly clothing that is made for work. It's also very distinctive. I like women's prayer bonnets. I think that of the, the world of bonnets, they're tasteful, pretty structured. They're not practical from a sun protection standpoint, but I guess I'm not going to complain too much about that because the straw men that the wear the men, sorry, the straw hats that the men wear are very fetching and better for some protection and probably women are doing more indoor work anyway.

So I am a fan. I love it. I think that they use a lot of natural fibers, a huge fan of natural fibers. And I. I know these clothes can take a beating. I, we, we see them as we drive through Lancaster. We [00:10:00] set

Speaker 3: up in our area. There's lots of Amish. So they set up around where we are. And you can see the

Speaker 4: clothes drying in the wind on large clothes lines, and they're just great.

Speaker 3: I think they are great in a number of perspectives. I think that so one, we've got to talk about like the actual prohibitions here, they're there. They can't use things like buttons. They can't use things like that to them was a modern, there's no buttons. Oh, yeah. Buttons are considered too high tech for them, like garish.

Speaker 4: Ooh,

Speaker 3: la la. How do they fasten

Speaker 4: their

Speaker 3: clothing? There's two little fastener types that were common pre buttons. And I mean, keep in mind, buttons are a fairly new technology. You know, we just forget about this, right? You know. But obviously they're not going to use zippers. They're not going to use Velcro.

They're not going to use, but so they have a lot of strict rules around these specific types of technology that they can engage with within their clothing, which may make their closing like unusually difficult in some ways. But the end [00:11:00] effect when you see an Amish individual. Very interestingly is one, especially Amish women come across is very approachable, more approachable than other religious traditions I've seen.

And Amish men do as well, actually.

Speaker 4: I don't feel that way. I feel uniquely nervous about approaching them. I don't think I've ever walked up to an Amish woman. Shattered with an Amish person.

Speaker 3: Oh, I always feel like it would

Speaker 4: be disrespectful somehow.

Speaker 3: They, their outfits to me, engender a sense of piousness and a sense of humility without belittling them or making them look lesser than other people

Speaker 4: they certainly don't look lesser, they look very competent and put together in their clothing.

But when I see people dress that differently from society, even when they're mixing with society, and we typically see Amish people, when we are at like in a place where we can interact with them at farmer's markets or going to one of their shops, I get this feeling like we dress different differently and we look differently because we [00:12:00] don't want to mix and interact with you.

We are trying to be separate. from your society. I don't want to talk with you.

Speaker 3: I

Speaker 4: mean, it's a good thing, but it's not approachable. I don't know where you're getting approachable from this. It doesn't feel at all.

Speaker 3: And I feel like all

Speaker 4: religious othering Clothing is kind of meant to make people less approachable.

To, to, sorry, I, I should

Speaker 3: be clear. I mean, transactionally approachable. So the people who don't live around the Amish don't realize most of the time you're interacting with Amish just because you're doing business with them.

Mm-Hmm. . So they're very common. The women will run fruit stalls, they'll run stuff like that,

Speaker 4: baked goods.

Amazing. And, and I,

Speaker 3: I guess part of, to me, what makes it feel approachable is I know. They're never going to try to small talk me. They're never going to try to like sell me up on their products. That's true. Never gonna hustle me or try and pressure. Okay. So they come

Speaker 4: across as trustworthy, not approachable.

Speaker 3: Well, for me, it's not just trustworthy. It's that I know that they have no interest in talking my ear off about something, I guess [00:13:00] for me, typically approachable,

Speaker 4: someone is up for small talk.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Okay. So I guess I mean, you drive me nuts with word choice. Because that's, that's where I see them. I see them at stalls and I'm always, I would always go to an Amish stall over another stall for sure.

Well, and you feel the same way then. So clearly it's achieving that end, but it's going to prevent them. I mean, in terms of interaction with mainstream society, this is where it really struggles. If you dressed this differently, you could not easily integrate with companies or move up in the workplace or

Speaker 4: I disagree because I think Muslim dress is also pretty extreme at times and it does not stop people at all.

Speaker 3: Okay. Okay. I'll buy that. So I prefer the, and I think the othering nature of it doesn't look ridiculous to me. I'd also note that. I think

Speaker 4: it looks very tasteful and good.

Speaker 3: Yeah when I say ridiculous, if people are wondering what I'm talking about here when we get to some of the Haredi Jewish stuff some of their outfits especially the male ones are just like, Are they like peacocking?

Like, is this like religious peacocking [00:14:00] here? Where it's just like a bit much, it's a bit much for everyday wear. All right. So, I want to talk about a few of the other groups here that are related to the Amish. Have you looked at Hutterite clothing before Simone? This is another Anabaptist group or Latin American Mennonite clothing.

Speaker 4: Latin American Mennonite.

Speaker 3: So, Latin American Mennonites will wear very bright colors. So they otherwise wear this very traditional yeah, you're going to need to be doing a lot of Googling on this episode to see what these look like. Oh, they're so cute. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 4: Latin American Mennonites are great.

They're not always,

Speaker 3: They're not always colorful, but they're much more likely to be colorful because they don't have prohibitions against colors that some of the Amish do in our area. And then the Hutterites use a lot of patterns, if you look up the Hutterites, Hutterite clothing.

Speaker 4: One thing I'm noticing among Amish, Hutterites, Mennonites, is a lot of family matching, which I really like. It really makes them seem united and together. [00:15:00] Yeah, Hutterites, I don't like as much

Speaker 3: because I think that it's too normal looking.

Speaker 4: Yeah, and more, I don't, this sounds bad, but it more just looks like People trying to be trad, but they have bad taste.

Speaker 3: Exactly. That's exactly what Hutterite clothing looks like. So Hutterite, I put it like the bottom tier of Amish clothing. And then I put the, the colorful Mennonites in the Amish in the same category.

Speaker 4: Getting back to function and not just why things look good. One of the reasons why I'm not big on Hutterite clothing is there are a lot of very different patterns.

And I think one of the big reasons why this works, why, in this more traditional way works is it keeps you with very simple fabrics and very simple patterns, and it gets you focused on your devotion and not fashion. And it's clear to me that women and choosing all these really weird, bright patterns, especially.

You know, not just solid colors is they're going for signaling. They're [00:16:00] showing that they're different. They're getting obsessed with clothes. They have a varied wardrobe and the more your time goes mentally to picking out different colors in your wardrobe or making a new dress and getting a new pattern.

I think the less your, your time goes to what matters to you most. It goes back to that whole president Obama deciding to only wear blue suits thing. I

Speaker 3: really agree with that. I really agree with that. I think any outfit that allows for too much variation is a real negative thing in religious dress.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

So worse is, is, is how to write.

Speaker 3: Sorry guys. Love you guys. So now to the next group that I don't think you know much about, which is the bruderhof.

Speaker 4: Yeah. So I looked at, at

Speaker 3: the, some ish for a tier. Would you put Amish at a tier for floating a tier?

Speaker 4: 100%. Yeah. A tier Amish love, absolutely fantastic.

Mennonites? I would put it a minus. I think Mennonites are, well, you No, no, no, no. And I would put Mennonites at a as well because in some cases, Mennonites, the way that they vary and or are more [00:17:00] flexible from pure Amish clothing. Is more out of a choice for practicality. Like sometimes Amish clothing is so true to the original Amish choice that it is impractical.

And it is actually distracting to try to go all the way to fit that rule. When really, I feel like from a consequentialist standpoint, in terms of really focusing on the spirit of the rule. Yeah. Mennonites have it more nailed. So both Amish and Mennonites get an A.

When it comes to the Hutterites, I would put them at C.

Hutterites, I'd put them at

C

Speaker 3: or D. C.

Speaker 4: C minus D. Yeah. Okay. I'd

Speaker 3: say D actually, just because I think it's so, ugly looking. Yeah. Actually,

Speaker 4: yeah. D. D. Yeah. Mm.

Speaker 3: So next, well, it just looks undisciplined when contrasted with the other ones. Yeah. So

Speaker 4: Bruderhof. Bruderhof.

Speaker 3: So people who don't know who the Bruderhof is, the Bruderhof are another Anabaptist group.

So they're related to, if you don't know who the Anabaptists are, that's the community that makes up the Amish, the Mennonites, the Hutterites and the Bruderhof. But the Bruderhof are not anti [00:18:00] technology like the other ones are. They are, however Um, and they live in communist communes. They don't believe in like full communism for everyone.

They just believe in that we are commanded to live, you know, as one with our neighbors. So sometimes they'll have quite large communes. Other times a commune will just be a couple of families living in the same house and like a major city. But to be a Bruderhof, you have to live in what's called a Bruderhof, which is one of these communes.

Now that means that you get your clothing for free but it also means that everyone's wearing the same clothing,

Speaker 4: but not really because they have lots of different color patterns and the clothing just looks awful. It looks like. You went to the Goodwill and you got the worst looking dresses and shirts and pants possible.

It didn't look mainstream, you know, that didn't have like a Nike logo on it or something. And then you wore that. And I do not like it. It

Speaker 3: was going to be inexpensive to produce and very, very durable. And so it's not, the [00:19:00] only religious mandate they have in terms of their clothing is that women have to cover their heads.

Which a lot of the Judeo It looks

Speaker 4: like women also need to dress modestly. Because we're seeing very long skirts.

Speaker 3: Oh yeah, long skirts. Well, yeah, they do not sexualize women at all. And men, this is one of those communities where we talked about in our other video of do men need to be more oppressed. This is one of those communities where men sort of look like women.

quote unquote, normal Western dress. Typically they're almost always wearing jeans and a button down shirt. Whereas women will be wearing very long skirts and head coverings, which can make them look a little, well, Amishi sort of your take on this. You actually don't like this one is

Speaker 4: not a fan at all.

Do not like,

I would put it at a D. It doesn't say anything to me. I think another thing about religious wear is ideally there's something kind of aspirational about it. And we can get more into this with Catholicism, for example.

Speaker 3: Yeah. We'll go to Catholic.

Speaker 4: But this does, there's nothing about this.

Like when I look at the Amish, I think [00:20:00] you guys look amazing. Your family looks beautiful. You look really put together. Even Mormons, like sort of normatively, they try to dress neater and nicer than the average American. You know, they seem more aspirational. Yeah, these guys are just like, man, you don't look good.

It's at FLDS level. In fact, if I had to choose, I would choose FLDS clothing.

Speaker 3: Oh, where would you mark FLDS, by the way? Put it at a D as well? C minus. C minus. It is

Speaker 4: very distinctive. Yeah. You could own it. You know? Like, if you blue off

Speaker 3: as well is it's not as distinctive.

Speaker 4: Yeah. It's, it's, it's just, it's just unfortunate looking.

It would make me, you don't want to wake up every day and feel frumpy and kind of crappy. It's one thing to be, here's the thing, like, so nuns, for example, like Catholic nuns, they, they are being, you know, they're covering up huge portions of their body. Women in, in burkas cover [00:21:00] huge portions of their bodies, but they can still feel absolutely fabulous.

I don't think there's any way that you could feel fabulous wearing burkas. I don't mean fabulous like look at me materialism. I mean like I am a tool of God to do good in this world kind of fabulous empowered empowered

Speaker 3: feel like an empowered like weapon of God. Yeah,

Speaker 4: clothing should make you feel empowered.

It should be the armor and the tool that enables you to be what you need to be

Speaker 3: because I agree that Catholics. Absolutely do this was their clothing. And I mean, so I think that the biggest negative that we'll get into is Catholic clothing is when I look at it, it immediately to me looks haughty and very like high society and very, like, you are the elite. With, I don't think that this is as much a problem for Catholics as it would be for another denomination because they already kind of own all of those stereotypes was in the religion. Like, they're not signaling something dishonestly about the [00:22:00] religion. It is kind of a haughty religion.

Speaker 4: Yeah, it's about hierarchy.

There's a very large organization and being higher. And that organization both needs to be very heavily signaled and also reflects a lot of prestige. So yes, you need to signal that.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Is the people who find the Catholic closing desirable are also the type of people who, when they engage with the theology of Catholicism and the hierarchy of Catholicism, Are going to be more likely to convert.

So it serves its purpose incredibly well, even if to me, it personally comes off as a bit of a turnoff. Very similar to the Amish. I think the Amish closing did a very good job of signaling what the Amish are all about, right? This humility, this lack of technology, everything like that now. If we want to talk about just some, some stuff here, you've got like your albs, which can be worn by laymen and then you've got the down, which signal like holiness with this cinctures.

Well, I mean,

Speaker 4: most classic is the, is the cassock with the white collar.

Speaker 3: Oh, I love that. I [00:23:00] always wish it could look

Speaker 4: very bad ass.

Speaker 3: Oh, it does. Yeah. It's very

Speaker 4: authoritarian. It's simple. It's classy. Yeah. I think it's great. I think it's powerful. I love it as, as a. Something that is it is approachable.

Like it doesn't look scary. Like some, some Catholic religious wear looks scary. Like, well, back off, like stay away from this person.

Speaker 3: It's like too much for me. Yeah. Like when I look at the Bishop stuff, like it, it kind of actually looks like they might be going to a satanic ritual sometimes with all the red and all the, you know, it does, it does get

Speaker: a little satanic,

Speaker 3: but.

Microphone (2- ATR2100x-USB Microphone): I think if you've grown up with a religion, it can be hard to see the way something might come across to an outsider. So. Eve you grew up with the Catholic tradition. I would ask you to take a step back. Try not to draw from your own memories and associations with an image like this. And then as somebody who had never seen a scene like this before. Trying to guess in a movie. If you saw this, would you assume that this was supposed to be a Christian ritual or a [00:24:00] satanic ritual and keep in mind the cues you have to go off of.

Everyone's wearing red. They're wearing golden. Ropes around their neck that looked like. Well, it looks like a hangman's rope around all of their necks, like their sacrifices. And the room is filled with gold and jewels and other fancy things like marble.

Speaker 3: But when you go to the level of the priest, I think that is maybe the, the best looking of all religious outfits I have seen in the world by a margin. And then it gets even cooler if you're putting one of those characters in a movie and you put like the typical Catholic priest and you give them like a shotgun or something for fighting vampires or you know, a crucifix in one hand and you know, a baseball.

But all of a sudden, They just come off as ultra, ultra, ultra bad ass, just unironically in the coolest way. Very badass. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4: I also really like if we're talking about [00:25:00] nuns and, you know, women's religious where, if they are like a full, full time careerist church person, I like habits and I like A lot of the different orders habits.

And these are the veils that nuns wear. So there, there are very cloistered nuns, nuns who do not interact with the world. Like a family friend of ours became a Carmelite nun. This is a very cloistered order. And I only ever spoke with her, interacted with her through a great, like, and if we sent her like a Christmas card or a letter, she would have to send it back to us.

She couldn't keep it. That's how close to there. And then they had like the full out, very, you know, elaborate, beautiful, heavy black habit. But then you said, I'm seeing, I'm sure nuns on the street, like wearing more light blue habits and just kind of out and easier to wear dresses and stuff. And I like those too.

I think they all look good. They, they also look like they stay on very snugly. They don't look like they fall off all the time. They are protective of the sun. They, [00:26:00] they, they stay on well, and they're very distinctive. I, I think it's a great religious garman.

Speaker 3: No, I absolutely agree on that. But also the related lay person version of that, you know, we were reading an article recently about the and the free

Speaker 4: press.

Yeah.

Speaker 3: And one of the, the, the girls was like, I saw people wearing veils. And she's like, how do I qualify for this? Like, what's,

Speaker 4: yeah. That basically there's this new trend of, of. Women, especially young women, starting to wear veils to Catholic mass, just lace veils, as it sort of was traditional among some churchgoers in the past.

And now more young women are doing it. As a often first, they're doing it honestly because they see some Catholic influencer do it on Instagram and they, they see it and it looks like a sign of prestige and I know exactly that feeling when you see someone wearing something in a context and think like, well, how do I qualify to get that?

You know, like seeing a girl scout with a certain badge and being like, how do I get that? Like, what do I have to do to get this?

Speaker 3: [00:27:00] Keep in mind within Catholicism, it makes extra sense to think that because a lot of the Catholic is earned. are earned. So if a woman see the woman and of course they're going to think, Oh, what, what status did he have that I don't have yet.

And that's something does very well as all the levels that you can earn. Yeah,

Speaker 4: it's very gamified and I love it too. But yeah, now more and more young ladies are wearing these lace veils to church and often first it starts out As a, an interest in status or an interest in the fashion, they just look pretty and then it starts to become an act of devotion is as they put on that garment as they prepare themselves for mass through that wearing that special distinctive clothing that isn't just a nice dress or whatever.

It's actually a, you know, sort of religious. specific garment. It makes them feel more devoted. I think that happens a lot also with the various types of veiling that Muslim women wear is it reminds them of their devotion. And I think that's a really important [00:28:00] part of the function of religious garments is that you may, ideally you start wearing it because you want to, and maybe it's for the wrong reasons, because it looks cool, but then It makes you think and lean in, think about and lean into your religion and become more like,

Speaker 3: yeah, like, I'm, I'm from Texas.

Right. And if I was wearing cowboy boots to school, everyone would think of me as a Texan. And I'd probably think of myself as a Texan more by work and

Speaker 4: act more like a Texan, react to things like a Texan. Yeah. So better that you react to things like you are, you know, very, very dedicated to Islam or very, very dedicated to the LDS church and clothing helps that.

Speaker 3: Which then goes into the next category of Catholic wear is mortification wear. These days you know, mostly the, the religion that mostly still does this is Catholics for people who aren't familiar with this. This is when they wear things that intentionally hurt them. Like sackcloth,

Speaker 4: which is just uncomfortable to like actively like stuff that [00:29:00]

Speaker 3: Well, I mean, the one of the ones I've seen, like, even some, keep in mind, this is just some Catholic orders.

This isn't something that, like, all Catholics do, or all devote Catholics do. It's people who are devoted in some way. Devout. It's also devout. So, an example here would be Kaleesh. I believe they're called Khalees this is a chain or cord, or cord worn around the thigh or waist to cause mild discomfort.

Speaker 4: Which everyone learned about by watching the movie The Da Vinci Code.

Speaker 3: Yeah so modern versions are made of woven horsehair or scratchy materials although they can sometimes have like spikes in them that are meant to dig into you. As was shown in The Da Vinci Code, right? Yeah, well, and I think that that's actually what a lot of people, when you're wearing something like this, you typically want to go all in for the coolness factor.

Well, and it reminds

Speaker 4: me of girls cutting, honestly.

Speaker 3: Yeah. That's just a similar itch. It's about learning emotional control and self control and mastery over your emotions. And therefore, I view it as, like, A tier related or S tier related in terms of [00:30:00] religious culture. clothing, especially if it's opt in.

If it was a mandatory thing, then it'd be horrible. Horrible. Yeah. Opt in status thing. You got hair, shirt, undergarment. That's meant to be uncomfortable. There's something called a pentatile belt, which is a leather or cloth belt worn tightly around the waist intentionally uncomfortable shoes, which is something that the Puritans used to do as well.

Speaker: Wait, really? Okay.

Your shoes are quite sensible. They are for sizes too small. I could whittle you new ones. Nonsense. The pain purifies my predilection for pleasure. Your alliteration sounds dangerously like poetry. My apologies. Strike me, silence!

Speaker 3: And abstaining from country comfortable clothing altogether is another thing. And so yeah, I guess that's part of

Speaker 4: the sackcloth thing is if you wear sackcloth under your clothes, just itchy, scratchy, very uncomfortable. So no matter what you're wearing, you can look respectable, but beneath it's like, Oh,

Speaker 3: yeah.

So here's my thing was the larger Catholic faction, [00:31:00] faction of clothing. I think that, pretty much everything they have works really well and is nice. The problem is, is almost nothing is mandated.

Speaker 5: And

Speaker 3: as such, I cannot tell that somebody is a Catholic when I look at them. And most Catholics have nothing that signifies them as uniquely Catholic.

So despite the potentiality of Catholic wear, I'd have to put them in a C tier.

Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Unless everyone got to dress like a priest or nun, which I feel like would change everything because I think they're great outfits. I think they're great. If we had to just look at priest and nun outfits, like the traditional black cassock and traditional black habit and robes for women, A tier for me.

Speaker 3: I'd say S tier.

Speaker 4: S tier. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Well, then you can,

Speaker 4: you can kind of tell how good religious wear is by how often it shows up in anime and oh my gosh, does anime love nun outfits and priest outfits. Am I right? I [00:32:00] mean, come on.

Speaker 3: All the badass nuns. Well, you got, you got Dogwood, right? From Trigon. That's a great character.

Anyway, so now let's go to the various Jewish outfits. Okay. And we're not going to be exhaustive here because Jews have some of the biggest diversity in religious outfits. Yes. Which I actually, I don't know how I feel about it. So. Part of me is like, it's a negative thing because you know, it means that everyone, unless they're used to the various different types of, for example, her righty dress, they may know that you are a religious extremist of some variety, but no, exactly.

Because

Speaker 4: there's

Speaker 3: a huge amount of inter community identity. So, We can go over the just to Google some before we go further here. Is it Yemenite Jewish dress and Sephardic Jewish dress to start? Okay.

Speaker 4: Sephardic. Well, I guess historical Sephardic [00:33:00] Jewish clothing is pretty fricking cool, but I don't know how much of that's historical dress versus. Yeah, I'm not seeing any modern Sephardic Jewish clothing here. So what is the

Speaker 3: I don't know. I, I think that they don't have this strict things on modern Sephardic Well, then

Speaker 4: that makes it D tier, F tier.

If there isn't like a cohesive, like if, if Google images will not show me, Modern people in religious dress and they, they failed. It's not a brand. It's not a thing.

Speaker 3: The, the Yemenite one is to me just too garish when it's unique. It is I, I, I don't like all of the, the fancies of it and it's garish

Speaker 4: focused on peacocking instead of your devotion, right?

Speaker 3: Yeah, no, it looks like peacocking. But now let's look at the, at the

Speaker 4: we've got the, we've got the fur round discs and we got the hats and we got the curly cues for the men. Now this is, I think this goes back to a different podcast conversation we had about othering males and [00:34:00] oppressing, oppressing males by making them dress uniquely. This is among the most distinctive everyday wear for all male practitioners of a religion.

Maybe the most,

Speaker: right? This is, this is the thing. Of, of what, the Satmar?

Speaker 4: Yeah, the Satmar. I'm, I'm, I'm. Yeah,

Speaker: so,

Speaker 3: with The Big Fur Disk,

Speaker 4: and we've got the, The

Speaker 3: Satmar, and Ger, Hesidim dress. Mm hmm. It's, it is very, very othering.

And I think specifically you know, when you're looking at something like the Streisand Heim's or whatever they're called the, the big for circular hats, those are

Speaker: amazing.

Speaker 3: They're amazing. And what I think does very good for them is that they appear to me like they, they show the culture pretty well.

Typically when I see somebody in one of those, I imagine somebody who's like, and happy. And that's what the movement is known for. Is being very Sort of over the top in their, in their cel celebratory nature.

Speaker 5: Mm-Hmm. [00:35:00]

Speaker 3: The more celebratory ones. Yeah. And then the other ones where, you know, you, you, you focus more on the long poeo, I believe they're called the, the curly Q things on the side.

I mean, they, it looks Jewish. It's fine. Like it, I, I'd say in terms of dress I put it in a tier.

Speaker 4: It is very distinctive. Yeah,

Speaker 3: it conveys what the religion is about. It's and it looks put together, like it doesn't look dirty or it doesn't look like a part. It's not like actively. distasteful, but it also comes close to being too much.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm, I'm on the edge. So also when we're talking about many Orthodox Jewish women, you have to cover your hair outside. What many women do is they just keep their hair very short and, or they shave their heads and they wear wigs. And if you're really devout, you will wear a veil over your wig. And this just starts to feel kind of excessive to me.

Like part of me is like, listen, if [00:36:00] you're covering your hair, don't cover your hair with fake hair. You know, you're still going out with hair. Normal people won't realize that you're wearing a wig and they will just, you're not looking modest. Like you're still showing your hair. The point is you don't show your hair.

And so I really don't like that. It seems more like. Classic Jewish rule bending instead of which I guess is super Jewish, right? You know, it's like, well, so I'm not allowed to do this. All right. Well, what's my way around it? I'll just wear a wig over my hair. Like that's like, okay,

Speaker 3: here's the rules as written now.

How do I get around there? It's

Speaker 4: so Jewish, but it also like really bothers me because we're not about rule following. We're about like. We're consequentialists.

Speaker 3: We, we mentioned this in another episode, but it's worse. So people don't think that you're just being like anti Semitic and saying this. This is something that, that especially the more Orthodox Jews do a lot like the fishing line that they're spending like a million dollars to keep up around Manhattan because it makes it all technically one location for some Hasidic Jews on the [00:37:00] Sabbath which allows them to move objects in between it.

And it's like, That's so like, obviously that's not the intent. Like when God made these laws for you, like assuming they came from God, he didn't mean for you to look for like niggling ways to get around it. Yeah. Like

Speaker 4: there's, you know, there's rules like you can't turn, you know, lights on and off during the Sabbath.

Okay, well, fine. So they create these lamps with like rotating shades. So you just rotate the shade around. to hide the light. It's like, no, no, you're still turning the light on and off. This is not so, especially because we're big sticklers on the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law. And a lot of Jewish rule bending seems to be really focused on the letter of the law.

But I also see that as a feature, not a bug of the Jewish religion. I mean, I see the Jewish religion and I think the snake oven story indicates the Jewish religion. Is a religion of law. And so I also don't see it as, so for my culture, it seems like wrong, but I think it's really appropriate for Jewish culture, which is why I'm [00:38:00] so on the fence about the wig thing, because it it's, it's really good.

Like it's a great microcosm for Jewish rules, but at the same time, it drives me a little nuts because I'm like, Hmm, not the point. It seems like something our kids would do if we gave them rules. You know what I mean? Like they'd find some way around it.

Speaker 3: I I know I, I completely agree with you. Yeah.

So there, it might, it might fall to B tier for me. It's just too deontological. In terms of the way that the rules are laid out, where you can contrast it with something like the Amish where especially Mennonites. Yeah. Where

Speaker 4: with Mennonites it's like, okay, let's go old fashioned. Let's not do anything crazy, but you know, let's not be so old fashioned that it gets difficult and time consuming.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, and also this is the problem with Jewish dress codes is they are more driven by what they are forced to wear instead of by what they are not allowed to wear.

Amish dress is primarily driven by bans on specific things that are seen as too garish or over the top. And as Coco

Speaker 4: Chanel [00:39:00] said, elegance is refusal.

Speaker 3: Yeah, the thing that leads to Jewish dress being so unique looking like the more Hasidic factions is specific pieces of clothing or elements that they feel they have to wear, like the polios or the hat cover, the head coverings or the various other parts where like there's some line here, Or here that could be interpreted as mandating this particular fashion item.

And then, you know, it just over the centuries, more and more unique fashion items get layered on top and eventually, you know, if the religion goes on for another 10, 000 years Random other items are going to be added and added and added until they're walking around with all the like bells and whistles and everything.

But

Speaker 4: here's one more argument for in terms of the function of fashions like these, the additive fashions that I do think is important to note, and especially uniquely helpful to tightly knit religious niche communities that live close to each other and have these rules around clothing the Amish and especially for example, Orthodox Jewish women [00:40:00] are empowered by these clothing and dress mandates because it creates cottage industries.

So there are many Amish who produce Amish clothing, and that is their, that's how they make money. That's how they survive. You know, it creates an economy for them that outsiders can't opt into and ruin. Many Orthodox women who need to make money for their families because their husbands are devoted to religious study make money.

By producing and selling wigs, for example, I was just listening to an interview with a former Orthodox Jewish wife who had seven children and many of her female friends in the community made and sold wigs and of course only to other orthodox Jewish women. But I do like that it creates economic opportunity within those communities, assuming that the people are living within commercial reach of each other.

Speaker 3: Okay. Okay. So you're going to put it at B tier. Next let's go to the Sikh. This is an interesting one. I, for me, it has like, Huge upsides and huge [00:41:00] downsides.

Speaker 2: Yes.

Speaker 3: The upside I generally think it looks pretty good. It looks smaller. Come on. It looks

Speaker 4: smaller. I like it

Speaker 3: smaller however the mandates against haircutting or beard cutting at least.

Create a look of lack of hygiene, frankly. It depends.

Speaker 4: I think it depends on the time and culture that you live in. There will be times where it makes you look like everyone else. There will be times where it doesn't. And I just feel like grooming related rules are difficult. In general.

Yeah. Because also, like, some people look better in a beard. Some people don't. And mandating things one way or another on that front sometimes leads to unfortunate results for those who are not. Optimized for one or the other.

Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a, that's a really good point. Not a, other than that, I mean, I love the use of colors, the clothes that gets dirty.

Mm-Hmm. actually the Sikh religious wear to me feels very much, 'cause you know, I, I lived in Scotland for a period and, and you know, you wear your trips, big Sikh community there at occasions. No. But it feels almost like they mandated. [00:42:00] Traditional Scottish wear. Like it has a lot in common with it, in terms of the, you're, you're, you're wrapping things around you, then you're cinching them with traditional Scottish wear.

You always keep a dirk with you, which is a type of knife. With traditional Sikh wear, you're always keeping a Kirpan with you which is a knife. And as I mentioned both men and women, this, this, this, Traditional Scottish words, which women didn't have to carry a knife with them. And it's one of the five articles of, of faith that they must wear at all times.

Mm-Hmm. . They've got other things which are a little less intrusive, like a band that relate, reminds them of the oneness of God and, and some, you know, hairstyle related. And what's

Speaker 4: interesting too is there's a lot of there's a lot going on and I think that what we, we outsiders see is the long hair.

We see the turban and sometimes we see the sword but we don't see. That they have special drawers, special underwear, kind of like Mormon underwear for men. We don't see the comb, the [00:43:00] conga which is interesting. We don't see the steel bracelet. Like there are a lot of elements there. And I think that the, this process of putting on both jewelry and accessories and undergarments and, you know, personal grooming, I would say that like Sikhs get points for having a very all encompassing Wardrobe.

They touch on your hair, they touch on your accessories, they touch on your weapons, they touch on your jewelry. But it allows

Speaker 3: for a huge amount of individual customization as well.

Speaker 4: It's true. It's true. Yeah. So there's flexibility, but there's also like, it's, it is touching so many things. So it's, it's

Speaker 3: put it in a, it more like more united than the Jewish outfit, the Jewish outfit.

It feels like at various points during Jewish history, they wrote down a fashion item you know, that was popular at some time, maybe a thousand years ago, and then just a few got added over time until it created an end outfit, but it was more intentionally designed to all fit together. Yeah,

Speaker 4: cohesive and with a solid reason behind everything and symbolic meaning behind everything.[00:44:00]

Speaker 3: Yeah. And I also want to talk about the, the the Kirpan the knife that they have to wear which I would look

Speaker 4: awesome.

Speaker 3: One, it looks awesome too, for religious liberty reasons. It gets them access to protection in environments where other religions cannot get protection. The one downside to it is because of the mandate was made at a time without modern weaponry.

It is a form of weapon that is not totally usable. In a modern context for the reason it was originally mandated. And that's why I think consequentialist rules in terms of stuff. This will eventually be included in one of the tracks. We talk a little bit about it in, in the next one that's coming out.

But you know, In the, in the dream of Nebuchadnezzar, we are told that there will be a future war between the men of iron and the men of clay, like there is conflict in the future. And for that reason, there is a [00:45:00] religious mandate to, as a community, never stop the development of weapons technology.

Like, that is one area, no matter how peaceful it seems, that you are always pushing forwards. And that every individual has a mandate for self protection with whatever the most modern and effective type is,

Speaker 5: Modern

Speaker 3: context that might be something like you know, carrying a pistol but that's, you know, because we're focused on the what we're here the not not the deontological.

Oh, you have to carry a pistol. It's have to carry the most advanced type of protection possible while that while advancing that protection as a community. But yeah your thoughts.

Speaker 4: I agree. I like it. I also love the, the Scottish jerk, you know, knives, knives are great. Incorporate knives. Wonderful.

Definitely.

Speaker 3: Well, I mean, you could have that as a backup, you know, you, maybe you always have to have a knife and some other form of more advanced protection. [00:46:00] I think it's probably the safest way to design a traditional outfit. Which is something we'll probably work on. You know, moving our kids into, once they reach an age where they are safe to have stuff like that.

Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. Not now . No, I

Speaker 3: have a knife. I gotta play that video.

Let me see what you have. No!

Speaker 4: Yeah. No, that, no, I know that. No. So. Well now oh boy. Oh, boy.

Speaker 3: All right. Shinto religious garb is next.

Speaker 4: Yes. So you don't like it. I love it.

Speaker 3: Where would you put the Sikhs

Speaker 4: on a grading scale? Sikhs? I'd put A. A tier. A tier. Flexible. Maybe A minus because I feel like sometimes from a practicality standpoint, it's a little distracting to have to deal with that much.

But I like that it's all encompassing. I love that it sort of touches on all things, at least for men. And I think it [00:47:00] should get extra points for being a male restrictive form of dress, because as we pointed out men seem to be more likely to easily stray away and, and giving them opportunities to lean in, especially through othering clothing, as we put it.

Is a strict plus. So, okay. Solid A, solid A. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Okay. So, we'll do, we'll do three now. Shinto, Buddhist and Hare Krishna together. So what do you like about Shinto?

Speaker 4: So when I think of Shinto, I immediately think of the dress of like Shinto priests that I saw when I visited Shinto shrine. So we're talking.

Sort of very traditional looking Japanese robes with white billowing long sleeves and a white top and then sort of red billowing pants. And I think that they're great because the fabric is fairly heavy, but also very breathable. It's the kind of thing that you can wear heavy, Like long underwear beneath during the winter, but [00:48:00] then during the summer, it's something that's very breathable.

So I think it's great all weather clothing. It's easy to move in in terms of both religious practice, you know, bowing and getting down and up and moving around. It's very easy to move around. I think it's, it's beautiful. The folding, the pleading is, is gorgeous. I like the distinct colors, the red and the white, very crisp.

It really stands out, especially in the context of Shinto shrines.

Speaker 3: You have to have basically a ceremonial position to wear it. And yes,

Speaker 4: I would say just like with Catholic wear, and this is why it isn't a tier by a long shot, is that if everyone who. Practiced Shinto religion had to wear it, it would be fantastic, but they don't so all bets are off.

Speaker 3: Well, and this is one of the secondary problems. So like the Buddhist stuff looks really good when you're looking at people in a temple or whatever, where you know, a lot of discipline and they're in a religious community. But then when you look at iterations of Buddhism, where [00:49:00] everyone has to wear it, like the Hare Krishna, it ends up looking dirty and impoverished.

Yeah. Just kind of gross. Yeah. Scale very well. So yeah, that's my challenge with that.

Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I don't think Buddhist robes are by a long shot as practical. As Shinto clothing because it, anything that's like a wrap, that's like, like a, sorry, for example, these are fussy garments. All right. No, no, you're not, you're not going to, you can't chase after kids easily in those.

You can't weed the garden easily in those. It's, it's not a thing. Great. If you're a Zen Buddhist and your entire life is dealing with the frustration of your clothing and you've no other responsibilities. By all means go for it, but no.

Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely agree. So now we're at Puritan clothing, traditional Puritan clothing, not techno Puritan clothing.

Speaker 4: Are we going to talk about Islamic clothing first?

Speaker 3: Okay. We can talk about Islamic clothing first. Let's go [00:50:00] Islamic clothing. So, we can start with like, I'll pull a few up here for me to look at.

Speaker 4: Well, there's, there's first all the forms of Islamic veiling for women. Which I think is really interesting because I think some, Are good at looking aspirational and also being somewhat practical and some are not.

So for example, I think that a, like, a Shiloh or hijab, they look great, but they're very impractical. Everyone I've known who's worn one or the other is constantly adjusting and fiddling with them. Cause they keep sliding off and they just, you These aren't people who are new to wearing these either.

These are people who've worn these all their lives and it just doesn't look practical. The problem is that when you start to look at other forms of these garments, like, I'm going to mispronounce it, but niqab. Like, it's more attached or kemar. They're, they're just like, they're more like hoods you put [00:51:00] on.

They don't look very good. It looks more like your beekeeper mode. And I don't find that aspirational. And I think that a lot of, a lot of women who are. dabbling with going deeper into their faith start to wear a hijab, for example, because it looks beautiful and they think, you know what? I feel really good wearing this.

It kind of solves the problem of what do I do with my hair? Which is a non trivial problem for women. It's, it's gorgeous but it is too fussy for me. And I think

Speaker 3: it is pretty, by the way. I think hijabs look really ugly.

Speaker 4: It doesn't matter, because it's women making this decision. Yes,

Speaker 3: women, and we talked about this in the other episode.

Women look at an item For themselves and for

Speaker 4: other women. So, yeah, they see

Speaker 3: pretty much what they want to put it on them. The point you were making before is, does the item look pretty, not does it look pretty on you, is the way that women make decisions around clothing. And other women in the comments were like, yeah, Simone gets it exactly.

Which is very interesting, and I as a guy never understood that that's how women relate to clothing. They don't think [00:52:00] about what it looks like on them. on them. And I think that that is true. I think hijabs like scarves look very good. They just don't look good on people. Women don't care about it like that.

Well,

Speaker 4: in terms of looking good on people, I think a bias look really good. These are more like the, it includes the, the fabric draped over the head, but also it's more overall a full body robe. But your face is still sticking out. So it's not a full out burka. It is, you know, you, you have a, you have your face and your hands.

And that's nice. I think that they are very beautiful. They're more sci fi. They're more impactful. So I'm a big fan of those. And I think that, you know, going all in with your dress instead of wearing like normal, modest street clothes, and then a hijab has you more leaning into your devotion and othering yourself, which we see as a strict plus,

Plus it looks like it breathes well, it would work well in both very hot and very cold weather.

So I would put that. specifically as, as a tier. I also am [00:53:00] a huge fan of Burgas and I think that they are equally appealing to many men. And also to women. I actually think that they're surprisingly kinky. And I say this because the first person to really talk with me about their thoughts about Burkas was a guy who was really into BDSM.

Like he's someone who told me about the dungeon in SF before I'd heard about it. And he was just like, I just think it's really sexy. This idea that I'm the only person who gets to see like my female partner. Wait, was he Muslim? No, not at all. What does his partner wear? A burqa? He was thinking about asking her if she would be open to wearing a burqa.

It's, it is very BDSM. I also just love burqas. Like if I converted, I would probably want to wear a burqa. I love the practicality of them. I love the privacy they offer. I love the sun protection. When, when, when, when Zika virus was out and we were really [00:54:00] concerned about pregnancy related complications related to mosquitoes, I was like, I want to develop the Zirka like the Zika.

Yeah. So like protect you.

Speaker 3: I mean this is the thing about it. People are like, well, what do you think of Muslim male dress? Right? Because if you go to Qatar or you go to Saudi Arabia, you'll see distinct male outfits worn. Those are the best.

Speaker 4: Are we talking the white flowing? Yeah. Here's

Speaker 3: the

Speaker 4: problem.

Yes.

Speaker 3: I don't count them and I'll explain why I don't count them. Okay. Why? Because they're not. Actually religious outfits. They are cultural. As if I said, I'm from Texas, therefore my traditional religious wear is cowboy boots and a cowboy hat. And so there are the

Speaker 4: cowboy boots and cowboy hats of Saudi Arabia.

Speaker 3: Yes. That's what they're wearing. And I would say that if you took a traditional Texas outfit which a lot of Texans wear to formal events in the same way that Scott's where the traditional, yeah, 100%.

Speaker 4: We went to a wedding that was just that. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah, we went to a wedding and it was lots of, you [00:55:00] know, the, the style vests, very, very normal in Texas.

But the problem is, is then you've got to compare it to all regional outfits. And the problem is, is that regional outfits after school, most religious outfits. So for example, I put the classic Texas outfit at like S tier above like, even Catholics in terms of just pure aesthetics and and then the same was the Scottish outfit, you know?

Oh

Speaker 4: yeah. Yeah. The kilt

Speaker 3: is the jerk and the, you know, that's real S tier there because you also get the mandated weapon. Right. You know?

Speaker 4: So people could take religions, like you could take Presbyterianism. and reinvent it for intergenerational durability, like per our argument in the pragmatist guide to crafting religion, that you can take an existing religion and make it more intergenerationally durable.

There's an argument to be made that making quote unquote othering clothing and having more of a uniform for your religion makes it more intergenerationally durable. So you could [00:56:00] take Presbyterianism, which comes from Scotland, And just apply formal Scottish dress to it as part of your, like, just like the Amish, it wasn't like the Amish originally were like, they sort of like encapsulated what, what year did they just sort of stop advancing with clothing?

I want to say it was in the 1800s. Yeah, like 18 something but like, It's not like they always dress that way. It was that they decided at one point. So you could decide to make a version of an existing religion where you go with traditional Texan wear, where you go with traditional Scottish wear. And I hope someone does it

Speaker: because

Speaker 4: I agree with you.

Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 3: Some of the modern Jewish factions are to some extent like that with some of the unique elements of these Haraiti outfits. They're relatively new. Right? Yeah. Well, they're based on lines from the Bible. They are relatively new in terms of their popularity. And I often point this out by putting it pictures of medieval Jews.

So you can see like, yeah, they had head coverings, but they looked more like go pieces. And a lot less like, you know, big round furry hats or [00:57:00] something like that. Right. So, you know, So the big

Speaker 4: furry hats are proof that you can make a new thing for an old religion.

Speaker 3: Yes, you just need to find something in the text that you could cite in the same way that I'm able to do something like, say, cite the Nebuchadnezzar's dream story to be like, this is where a mandate for you know, one technological development of weapons was.

Must continue and to having a, a, a necessity of arming yourself and being ready for conflict at any time. Right. But the, the final group that we were going to go into was Puritans, the old Puritan outfits. Yes. So what do you, what do you want to go into here?

Speaker 4: The thing that I laughed about most when first learning about them was this concept of sad colors, sometimes spelled S.

A. D., sometimes spelled S. A. D. D. because we're talking about old English where people just winged it when it came to spelling. But sad colors were basically colors that were both modest and [00:58:00] practical. And those were the key colors. Condoned and approved upon or approved clothing of Puritans like clothing colors, specifically sad colors did not involve using expensive dyes.

They were more durable. They were more washable and they weren't about showing off. So hold on. I need to look up names of sad colors because you'll understand. Also, like, how not cool these colors are. They're like liver. Yeah, they include liver color. Well, they, the Puritans called it Dubois, but the color comes from the French term Dubois, like wood.

So brown, tawny, russet, rust, purple, French green, which was a very pale shade of gray green, ginger line, which was Deer color. It's just great. Orange. Grindelland from the French grideline. Flax blossom, the color resemble that resembles periwinkle. Peuce. Oh, so flattering.

Speaker 3: Folding color. But the, the larger point before you go further with this, [00:59:00] Is that unlike modern beliefs Puritans actually the traditional old style Puritans did not wear black very frequently they saw specifically the colors black and red to be too bold Ostentatious.

Yes And black

Speaker 4: dye was also expensive and black dye also was more likely to fade at that time So it just wasn't as practical either.

Speaker 3: Yeah, so they would only wear it For very special occasions, like having their paintings drawn. And so now we associate it with them because we associate them in their most formal attire.

But it was not a traditional Puritan outfit. Yeah. It's very

Speaker 4: earth Tony. It's, it's very cottage core.

Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that you're in my you know, the, the techno Puritan clothing recommendations are very. They show part of the difference that we have from the older Puritans, which is to say that one, update with technology now that black dye is, you know, easy to create.

It means that yes, it makes sense. And also I wouldn't [01:00:00] have a prohibition against anything bold. I would in fact go further and say that wearing bold clothes is in, in a way, Yeah. Whereas

Speaker 4: in, in, in during colonial America's Puritan times, people were literally put on trial for wearing clothing that was too ostentatious.

There were conflicts in communities that were things like this. And their definition of ostentatious would put, you know, it would be something that a normal person would wear today, let alone an ostentatious person like ostentatious for them was like, Oh, that bow is too bad. You know, they'd freak out about the stupidest things.

So, yeah, I think. We disagree on boldness. We're a lot less conformist. We're much more in favor of being lumpy and standing out. But in general, I think

Speaker 3: that and we've mentioned this in other videos, that closing choices from a religious perspective should be one chosen by individual families, but also normalized throughout a family for cost efficiency and long [01:01:00] term use perspective, i.

e. All the kids wearing the same outfit makes it much easier as the kids age to just, you know, have, you know, Each bucket labeled with an age range so pick up the stuff and then they've got the, the, the closing that they need. And then if they want to wear something other than the family uniform, then they're buying it and dressing themselves.

Microphone (2- ATR2100x-USB Microphone)-1: Just to note on how we do religious clothing in our system. We've mentioned this before, but basically you just optimize around efficiency and cost savings and durability. , and so within our family, that means that, , all of the males and females and dress the same, so we can just switch out clothes with them.

And the kids dress the same as me. , and that they were, , well, I wear brightly colored yellow shoes. They were brightly colored yellow shoes. , this has a lot of benefits. One because the shows are brightly colored. It's very easy for me to find them and because it's shoes, you know, I can't necessarily see their heads poking out anywhere. But if I'm at say an airport or a fairground and I lose one of the kids, I [01:02:00] can just put my head to the floor, look around and see their shoes really quickly. , secondarily, it makes it really easy for me to find them when one of them runs away.

You know, once you get over. Three or four kids. , you really can't hold them all at once. So one it's always running away over something. , and, , you know, say I'm at a busy, fair. I can just ask somebody, Hey, have you seen my kid? And because we look so distinct and unique in, they see me with three other kids dressed exactly like me and they saw a kid like that run by recently.

They're like, oh yeah, I saw him run that way. And this is good. Saved me in a number of dangerous scenarios already. It also lowers the chance of kidnapping. A common thing because I'm usually the person that was the kid that were coming type of kidnapping these days is women will grab kids when a man is caring for the kid. Because, , well, if the woman starts screaming, oh, he's trying to take my kid.

Most people will take the woman's side, but if the kid is dressed exactly like the guy who she just took it from, this is a much less effective strategy. , it also lowers the chance that people think I'm being creepy with kids, because [01:03:00] they're like, oh, that's obviously your kid when I'm like at a playground or something like that. , also. It makes it obvious if there's a group of kids, I'll dress the same as one guy, and then somebody else tries to grab one of them and walk away with them or hold their hands.

, people would immediately be like, oh, that's that family's kid. That's not your kid. , so across the board, it just has tons and tons and tons of utility. However I would recommend if people are like, oh, I want to join this. Weird face that's something you guys are creating that the, what is optimal for my family is not necessarily going to be optimal for your family. , so because it's a belief system that really glorifies. , differences, , and unique cultural systems.

We would want everybody to build one themselves for their own family, with maybe the only unifying thing, being something like the efficiency of having a single outfit per, , gender and a family.

Speaker 3: Which is just a lot easier. And any other thoughts here on the old Puritans, where would you rank them? [01:04:00]

Speaker 4: I would rank them at I would rank them as a C plus, honestly, I think the clothing was, was cool. But when you actually compared to other clothing of the time, it wasn't that distinctive. It was just sort of practical clothing and also like, don't do anything cool, which I'm kind of against because we're, we're in favor of othering clothing.

And it doesn't seem their clothing was very othering at all. No,

Speaker 3: it wasn't particularly othering for the time period. And it came off to me as too fashion driven especially male Puritan clothing. While they did claim that they were into like humble clothing and stuff like that, it just doesn't shout humility.

There's, there's too like the buckle hats and stuff like that. And me shout arrogance. Like there's too much going on there.

Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, I think that was more just a product of the time, but again, that's that. Well, I know,

Speaker 3: but they should be able to have resistance to products of the time in the same way the Amish do today.

I mean, I'm nothing about the Amish outfits looks ostentatious. Yeah, they're very

Speaker 4: [01:05:00] unpretentious while also being. Extremely high quality and nicer than the clothing that I would say 95 percent plus of Americans wear.

Speaker 3: So here's what I think you would find interesting. If you actually look at Puritan outfit that women wore, they look very similar to your outfit, which you said you pieced together from several different time periods.

Speaker 4: Yeah. This is a Renaissance. These are Renaissance days. They would wear a very different clothing.

Speaker 3: Have you actually Googled it? Google Puritan women clothing. It looks almost exactly like the way you dress.

Speaker 4: They would, they would wear like sort of overdresses that you would fasten over the, your like bodice and chemise.

I don't wear an overdress. I just have a skirt and a bodice, which is a much older, like, Renaissance and pre Renaissance kind of outfit. Mm

Speaker 3: mm. Do they? Yeah. I mean, I'm looking at stuff here, and I'm not seeing this overdress in all of the, the outfits.

Speaker 4: No, I know my Puritan clothing. They were overdresses.

[01:06:00] Yeah, these are all overdresses.

Speaker 5: This

Speaker 4: is 100 percent overdresses. So yeah, and that's, that's a whole nother layer of fuss that I don't want to bother with.

Speaker 3: So you're, you're actually even more bare bones than the Puritan outfits I'm trying to make.

Speaker 4: Yes, faster to put on. And still very, but that's because we have the modern advent of long underwear and leggings.

So, While they, they could not, under their chemise, put on, like, high tech thermal underwear, I can. Meaning that they would need to have that overdressed. They would need to have all these additional layers in their stockings. which took a lot more to keep up and put on. You'd have to tie it down with ribbons and hold it up with various things.

So it's, it's all about combining the old with the new as far as I'm concerned. Will that make sense to me? So what would you say is the best religious garment?

Speaker 3: Probably the Amish.

Speaker 4: Gosh, same, same. The Amish win. The Amish win. Congratulations, Amish. We love you.

Speaker 3: [01:07:00] If all Catholics all wore like, if you If all Catholics dressed like nuns and priests.

It would be Catholics. We did go over the Orthodox Christians, though. But they're

Speaker 4: I just don't know. I think it's the same problem is that that's just for like religious practitioners. It's the same problem of the catholic church except I wouldn't. Their outfits

Speaker 3: are strictly more ridiculous than catholic outfits.

Yeah, so I wouldn't

Speaker 4: want them for all the practitioners. So, so sorry when

somebody's like what do I mean by more ridiculous? I'll put them on stage here keep in mind that we're people that are intrinsically repelled by anything that appears garish or ostentatious And the thing about the catholic outfits is they appear Elite.

But until you get to cardinal level, which I find kind of gross, they don't appear garish. Whereas the, the orthodox ones go right into garish territory. Yeah. It's too much, too much. Yeah. The

cool thing about most Catholic dress is it, it is basically couture and I would recommend there's a really great podcast for people who like fashion called articles of interest.

And [01:08:00] one of the more recent podcast episodes in 2024 is about Catholic clothing and the people who make it many of whom are not Catholic, by the way. So it's not one of those interior college industries but it is just incredibly expensive garments, you know, sometimes in the thousands and thousands of dollars.

You get like one for life basically because they're so carefully and well made with just the best fabrics. But I think that also speaks to the elitism of Catholic clothing. And that is, that is not a feature. So interesting stuff for more reading or listening. All right. Love you to death. Love

Speaker 3: you, Malcolm.

Like and subscribe and drop Apple. Yeah, honestly,

Speaker 4: if you could leave, if you have any sort of Apple device and you could leave us a five star review on Apple podcasts, you know, it's

Speaker 3: West. But I was just looking at my classmates podcast acquired. And they've got 2. 5 thousand and I'm annoyed. So please help

Speaker 4: Malcolm feel happy.

I

Speaker 3: have to, I have to beat that guy. Okay. You know, he may have started his podcast a decade before me, but you know, anyway, I love you to decimum. [01:09:00]

Speaker: I love you too.

Speaker 7: How crazy was it? It was so, so, so, so, so, so, so crazy! Do you want to go on the slide with me? What made it crazy? What was it like? It was like I was in a real rocket ship. Can you go on, can you go, can you, do you want to go on the slide? I don't think it's for grown ups, but uh, why don't you go with Toasty?

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The White Lotus Recap: Season 3 Episode 8 (Amor Fati)