Episode 508: MSIDS & Chronic Lyme - an Interview with Doctor Richard Horowitz

Dr. Richard Horowitz returns for an in-depth discussion about the evolving science of Lyme disease, co-infections, and the MSIDS model—his groundbreaking 16-point system for diagnosing and treating chronic illness. From tick-borne infections to environmental toxins, neuroinflammation, and immune dysfunction, this conversation is a must-listen for anyone navigating the complexities of chronic Lyme disease.

Ali Moresco shares her powerful personal healing journey using Dr. Horowitz’s Dapsone Combination Therapy (DDS), illustrating how integrative protocols and identifying “terrain” issues like mold toxicity and MCAS made full recovery possible.

🧩 Key Topics Discussed

🔬 What Is MSIDS?

• MSIDS = Multiple Systemic Infectious Disease Syndrome
• A polymicrobial, systemic model acknowledging Lyme, co-infections, and non-infectious drivers of chronic illness
• Based on 41 years of clinical experience and over 13,000 patients

🧪 Infections at the Core

• The “Three B’s”: Borrelia (Lyme), Babesia, Bartonella
• Lyme is almost always polymicrobial
• Mold, metals, viruses, and more can block healing if unaddressed

💊 Dapsone Protocol Deep Dive

• 9-week oral protocol + pulsed therapy
• Works on Lyme, Bartonella, and other intracellular infections
• Needs prehabilitation: detox mold, balance adrenals, correct deficiencies
• Ali shares how Dapsone worked better than 2 years of IV antibiotics

🛠️ The 16 MSIDS Points (Briefly Highlighted)

• Infections
• Immune suppression
• Mold/Mycotoxins
• Mitochondrial dysfunction
• Hormonal imbalance
• Sleep disruption
• Nutritional/mineral deficiencies
• Neuropsychiatric issues
• Gut health, MCAS, POTS, etc.

📊 The MSIDS Questionnaire

• Available free from Project Lyme or Dr. Horowitz’s website CanGetBetter.com
• Scoring 63+ indicates a high probability of Lyme or a related condition
• Helps differentiate Lyme vs. mold vs. viral vs. trauma-based illness

🔥 Herxing and Inflammation

• Good vs. bad Herxheimer reactions
• Importance of managing inflammation through:
• NAC, glutathione, methylene blue
• NRF2 activators (curcumin, sulforaphane)
• LDN & melatonin (for inflammasome control)
• “You have to Herx to heal — but you don’t have to suffer.”

🌱 Terrain and Environment

• Mold, trauma, toxic relationships, air quality, and diet can all impact recovery
• Importance of addressing mental health and emotional trauma
• Safe environments are essential to healing

🧠 Neurological Lyme and Brain Fog

• Lyme and co-infections can lead to severe neuropsychiatric symptoms
• Bart = rage, anxiety, OCD; Babesia = air hunger, night sweats
• Neurological damage is often reversible with proper treatment
• Sleep is a major factor; discussed tools like pregabalin, Lyrica, valerian, melatonin, and CBT

🧬 Personalized Medicine & Future of Lyme Research

• Role of AI and genetics in future protocols
• Hope for multi-center clinical trials (Dapsone trial in planning)
• Dr. Horowitz is transitioning to a consult model in 2025 and working with RFK Jr.

🧠 Neuroplasticity Tools Recommended

• Primal Trust (Dr. Cathleen King)
• Gupta Program
• DNRS (Annie Hopper)
• EMDR, neurofeedback, limbic retraining

🧪 Testing Labs Mentioned

• IGeneX (immunoblot for Borrelia, Babesia, Bartonella)
• T-Labs (Bartonella PCR, Babesia oto cloy)
• Galaxy Diagnostics (Bartonella)
• RealTime Labs (mycotoxins)

💬 Powerful Quotes

> “This model tells you there’s more than one reason why you’re ill. We have to pull all 16 nails out of the foot — not just one.” > — Dr. Richard Horowitz > “You have to Herx to heal. But with the right support, you don’t have to suffer.” > — Dr. Richard Horowitz > “I wouldn’t be where I am today if we hadn’t looked beyond just Lyme.” > — Ali Moresc

✅ Takeaways for Listeners

• You’re not crazy. Migrating pain is real and is a hallmark of Lyme.
• If you're still sick, you haven’t addressed all 16 nails — keep going.
• You need more than antibiotics — you need to heal your terrain.
• Hope is real. Recovery is possible.