In this engaging discussion, Peter Pomerantsev, a scholar and author focused on information warfare, shares insights from his work on countering propaganda. He argues that traditional fact-checking methods fail because people seek identity and belonging rather than mere facts. The conversation dives into the legacy of Sefton Delmer, who used innovative strategies during WWII, including creating fake radio stations to sway opinions. Pomerantsev also discusses the importance of community in combatting misinformation and influencing perspectives within Russia.
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insights INSIGHT
Propaganda Targets Identity
Fact-checks alone do not work against propaganda as those impacted seek identity and belonging, not just facts.
Effective information warfare requires addressing deeper psychological needs beyond mere truth dissemination.
question_answer ANECDOTE
Sefton Delmer's Unique Role
Sefton Delmer was a British journalist who infiltrated Nazi Germany and later led anti-Nazi propaganda efforts.
He used his fluency in German and insider knowledge to counteract Nazi messaging effectively during WWII.
insights INSIGHT
Why Propaganda Lessons Were Forgotten
Propaganda knowledge was forgotten after WWII due to its association with deceptive tactics like fake news.
Western narratives preferred heroic stories, pushing aside complex and morally ambiguous counter-propaganda efforts by Delmer.
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We need a fresh perspective on propaganda. The old strategies for combating misinformation are no longer effective. Simply offering fact-checks isn’t enough—those ensnared by propaganda aren’t searching for facts. They’re searching for something deeper: identity, belonging, and meaning.
This is the central argument of a new book by Peter Pomerantsev, a renowned scholar of propaganda and information warfare. "How to Win an Information War" tells the story of British journalist Sefton Delmer, who developed innovative techniques to counter Nazi propaganda during World War II. Peter explores Delmer’s legacy in hopes of uncovering lessons for today. Perhaps we, too, can learn something from both of them.
Book: https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/peter-pomerantsev/how-to-win-an-information-war/9781541774728/
Host: Volodymyr Yermolenko, a Ukrainian philosopher, editor-in-chief of UkraineWorld, and president of PEN Ukraine.
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UkraineWorld is run by Internews Ukraine, one of the country’s leading media NGOs.
You can support our work at https://www.patreon.com/c/ukraineworld. Your support is crucial, as we increasingly rely on crowdfunding. Even a small monthly contribution of $5 or $10 can make a meaningful difference.
You can also help fund our regular volunteer missions to Ukraine’s front-line areas, where we deliver aid to both soldiers and civilians—primarily by providing vehicles for the military and books for local communities. To support these efforts, donations can be made via PayPal at ukraine.resisting@gmail.com.
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The podcast episode is created by Internews Ukraine as part of the project “Strengthening Truth, Transparency and Democracy to Counter Disinformation”, supported by the Government of Canada.
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CONTENTS:
00:00:00 — What if fact-checks don’t work anymore?
0:01:52 — He, who fooled Hitler. Meet Sefton Delmer
00:05:28 — Why did we forget those who understand what propaganda is?
00:07:05 — Why propaganda keeps coming back
00:09:59 — Why did the Nazis win those who lost their identity?
00:11:42 — Are you wearing the mask or is it glued to your face?
00:13:57 — Think you're immune? That’s when propaganda hits
00:16:29 — To beat propaganda, you have to be vulnerable to it
00:18:55 — The real battle isn’t between freedom and unfreedom, but about what kind of “us” we build?
00:22:50 — Delmer’s radio war
00:25:53 — Weaponizing corruption: Delmer’s strategy to weaken Nazi loyalty
00:30:41 — “We know you better than they do”
00:33:28 — Tuning in = waking up: breaking the Nazi spell with masquerade
00:35:38 — What makes Kremlin elites panic? Not war - but losing control
00:39:39 — How to break Russian support for war?
00:44:24 — Forget regime change - exploit fear of losing grip
00:47:44 — Angry? Frustrated? That’s where good media begins
00:50:02 — Do I want to die for this? The question Delmer planted in Nazi minds
00:51:00 — Propaganda, trauma, and the fight for independent thought
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