Ep. 242: Kunal Madhok | The Black Box Fallacy: Why Wells Fargo Doesn't Trust an AI It Can't Explain

Episode 242: Wells Fargo has established a clear position on artificial intelligence: If you can't explain how an AI model works, you shouldn't deploy it. This stance challenges the common assumption that black box algorithms are acceptable costs of advanced AI capabilities.

In this episode, Kunal Madhok, Head of Data, Analytics, and AI for Wells Fargo's consumer business, reveals how the bank has operationalized this philosophy to enhance customer experiences while maintaining rigorous standards for model explainability and ethical deployment.

The stakes for financial institutions are substantial. As banking becomes increasingly digitized, organizations must balance sophisticated personalization with transparency and trust. Wells Fargo's approach demonstrates that explainability isn't merely about regulatory compliance—it's a fundamental driver of business value and customer trust.

Through rigorous review processes and a commitment to "plain English" explanations of algorithmic decisions, Wells Fargo ensures its models remain logical, aligned with business objectives, and comprehensible to stakeholders at all levels. This transparency serves multiple purposes: avoiding unintended consequences, maintaining human oversight of automated systems, and ensuring data-driven decisions actually drive business value.

Discover how Wells Fargo's insistence on explainable AI is reshaping everything from product recommendations to customer service, while setting new standards for responsible innovation in financial services.

Guest: Kunal Madhok, EVP, Head of Data, Analytics and AI, Wells Fargo

Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company

Give Us Feedback:

We'd love to hear from you. Help us enhance your podcast experience by providing feedback here in our listener survey: http://bit.ly/CCPodcastFeedback

Want to get in touch? Send a note to host Rob Markey: https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob

Time-stamped List of Topics Covered:

• [00:04:13] Integrating data science into business decisions and ensuring data-driven insights
• [00:07:29] Kunal's vision for personalization and delivering relevant, value-based products
• [00:09:22] Wells Fargo's ability to leverage life events and transactional data to better serve customers
• [00:11:05] Democratizing financial advice and offering tailored advice based on customer needs
• [00:16:53] Using live experimentation and AI models to tailor product offers and marketing
• [00:19:17] Strategic investment decisions for new product launches and capacity reservations using simulations
• [00:22:45] Explainability, and what this looks like in action
• [00:37:22] Strategies around servicing interactions and the key challenges around this work that demand solving

Time-stamped Notable Quotes:

• [00:00:27] "When a customer walks into a bank, they're expecting you to know them."
• [00:04:19] "Part of my role is to make sure we use data science in every business decision we make as an organization. And what that means is not just the quality and the fidelity of data, but also that decisions are made not based on intuition, but on real data outcomes."
• 00:07:29] "Good personalization is: We'll give you the right product based on your interests and your needs, and we'll deliver it in a way that you want. Which is the right channel, the right offers."
• [00:12:17] "If we can add value to our customers, they expect it. I'm sure when you turn on [a streaming service] today, it gives you a whole bunch of movies, shows to watch, curated just for you, based on your past history. And if they do it well, you actually like that, because you know the next five things to watch. And while that's in entertainment—and financial products are a very different space—that's the bar our customers are expecting us to meet."
• [00:22:45] "As we train our talent, we've put a high bar on explainability of the work they do."