Ep. 165: David Wray and Lynda Kitamura - Talent Development and Learning

Contact David Wray: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-w-29627882/
Contact Lyna Kitamura: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lyndahawtonkitamura/

FULL EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:
Mitch: (00:05)
 Welcome back to Count Me In, IMA's podcast about all things affecting the accounting and finance world. This is your host Mitch Roshong. And today you'll be listening to episode 165 of our series. A Harvard Business Review study concluded that more than 357 billion dollars spent annually on learning and development did not achieve the desired return on investment. It turns out that only one in 10 used the learn skills and only one in four believe training actually improved their performance. So we must ask, is there a better way to learn the critical, personal and business skills we need? Fortunately, for today's episode, you will hear from Lynda Kitamura, a seasoned Chief Financial Officer with a background that covers multinational to startup. We will also hear from David Wray, the author of the Power of Potential, and the President of the International Group of the French CFO network, DF CG. They spoke with Adam about their view on what accounting professionals can do to accelerate the transition to effective continuous learning. A skill the World Economic Forum Report on the future of jobs concludes is critically important and will remain so through 2025. So now let's head over and listen to the conversation.
 
 Adam: (01:25)
 So the Harvard Business Review findings that only 25% of learning attendees, find that what they learn improves their performance. What has been your experience with traditional learning approaches?
 
 David: (01:37)
 Maybe I'll start that question then. Adam, it's a great question to really set the context for the discussion with Lynda and personally I've long believed that the traditional methods of learning are woefully inadequate, and that's because they use the same approach in terms of being an outside-in approach. Let me explain what I mean by that. So I've got this philosophy that says, you know, an outside-in approach is effectively when someone comes into a room and they start talking about their experience, the way they learn their techniques, their tools. And that's great for them. In fact, it's brilliant for them, but it's not necessarily good for me. It's not necessarily good for Lynda or even for you or anybody else. So what I talk about a lot more in what I've practiced my entire career is this idea of the inside out method of learning.
 
 David: (02:28)
 And basically, let me give you an example of, what that inside-out method looks like. And I'll use public speaking as an example. So if you think of the traditional way of learning, you would end up going into a classroom, they would teach you about tone. They would teach you about pitch. Maybe they would teach you about what to wear, how to use media, how to walk around the stage and things like that. So all external things, but what they don't teach you for example is how do you harness your nerves as you're about ready to walk on stage and you're nervous. You've got butterflies. You're feeling that little bit of nausea. As you walk on thinking this, can I even do this? That's what they need to teach you. And when you look at experts in this, they've got a very specific technique for how they harness that nervousness and create a really positive energy for themselves.
 
 David: (03:15)
 That's what I mean by inside out. So it's taking the things , you can't see the skills and attributes you can't see, and basically using that to develop expertise. And that's what I refer to as the visible versus the invisible elements of being skilled at something. And it helps to put this in context from the stages of learning. So if you think about learning from the standpoint of we've got this unconscious incompetence, meaning we don't know, we don't know something, right? And we all start there every single one of us at some point. And it's then recognizing that we have that gap in knowledge, and then how do we then move it from the first phase, which is not being aware to then the awareness we're still potentially incompetent in that context. And I use that term very loosely, but at least now we know we don't know something. Then we need to move it to having this conscious competence.
 
 David: (04:08)
 Now we're starting to be aware that we've got a skill. We're applying it. We're starting to get fairly good at it. And ultimately when we move to mastery, it moves to a level of unconsciousness again. So then, you know, you look at experts and they can be incredibly talented. And when you speak to them and say, Hey, how do you do that? How do you harness your nerves before you walk on stage? And the typical answer you get at first is, I don't know, I just do it. And it's about how you get below that to say, Hey, how do you really do it? Tell me a little bit about what you go through so that you can start to understand the techniques that are basically hidden. So that's why I feel that the traditional outside-in approach of learning, doesn't work. So the Harvard Business Review finding's really don't surprise me from that perspective. What's your take Lynda?
 
 Lynda: (04:53)
 Thanks, David. Certainly would concur , with everything that you are saying, just from my experience, I would say, to everyone that we wouldn't discount traditional learning. I think of it more as a foundation, but as David, as you said, you absolutely as an individual or with your teams need to build on it. So an analogy think of watching a cooking show versus going into the kitchen and cooking. Both important. But you do not know until you actually do something or as you say, David, you practice something or you try it. You don't uncover what you do know and what you don't know. You haven't taken the technical learning. Maybe it's your accounting designation. Maybe it's some other expertise and brought it to top of mind where it's more inside, it's more intuitive. So I would say, you know, build on, on those traditional, if you have them, because they do serve a purpose, but David, as you said, then how do you internalize it? How do you become self aware? This is what I do well, but these are my gaps and then start doing things and it can be a class or it can be practice, or if it can be a volunteer role or it can be an assignment on a board. There's ways, different ways of doing that practice.
 
 Adam: (06:13)
 So you both raise some very interesting examples. And if you could choose one example to share with the listeners where you personally had the richest learning experience, what would that be and why that one? Lynda, can we start with you?
 
 Lynda: (06:29)
 Let me think. an example. I think one of my best examples for myself was early in my career. So I was working with a multinational high tech company and I was very early mid twenties. And this company went through its first acquisition of a workstation company. And at that time there hadn't been processes or protocol. They said, Hey, Lynda, would you go over to this company's offices, other side of the city and just figure out how to integrate it. So I had my accounting and business degrees and I had that piece, but until I went over and learned, okay, where is your general ledger? Where are your systems? What do you do? And immerse yourself in it, you don't know what you do and don't know. About a company, about the business model, about the people, as David said, half of it is, the emotional intelligence and emotional quotient. And so I think for me, immersing myself...