Teleology of Progress & The Dawn of Everything - Drs. A.V. Bendebury & M.S. DeLay - DS Pod 291
Oct 18, 2024
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The hosts challenge the traditional narrative of societal evolution, exploring alternative histories that suggest diverse ways of living. They delve into critiques of progress from indigenous and European perspectives, emphasizing community engagement. Discussions include the need for government reform to prioritize human interests and the evolution of modern activism. The podcast also examines the intricacies of colonialism, indigenous resilience, and the potential of radical ideas to reshape societal structures. Lastly, they advocate for reevaluating values and reimagining our future beyond scarcity.
The podcast challenges the traditional narrative of progress by suggesting that history is not linear, opening up possibilities for alternative societal structures.
It highlights North American examples where indigenous societies operated without bureaucracy and hierarchy, providing insights for potential future arrangements.
The hosts advocate for combining academic critiques with actionable solutions in discussions about societal change, emphasizing the need for innovative ideas beyond capitalist constraints.
Deep dives
Critique of the Standard Narrative
The podcast critiques the traditional narrative of civilization's progress, which suggests that humanity started as egalitarian hunter-gatherers who transitioned to agriculture, leading to hierarchy and inequality. The hosts discuss Graeber and Wengrow's assertion that this perspective is not only incorrect but also detrimental, as it shapes how we perceive our future. They argue that viewing civilization as a linear evolution results in a dangerous acceptance of the status quo, inhibiting innovative thinking for potential solutions. The discussion emphasizes the importance of reevaluating historical concepts to foster more creative societal structures.
Indigenous Perspectives and Alternative Societies
The episode highlights examples from North America, particularly interactions between colonists and indigenous peoples, to illustrate alternative societal structures that challenge the established narrative. Graeber and Wengrow's exploration suggests that these indigenous models operated outside the bounds of bureaucracy and inequality prevalent in European societies. The podcasters express excitement about the wealth of examples in the book that showcase how different societies functioned, often in egalitarian ways, without exerting control through oppressive hierarchies. This exploration opens up a dialogue about the possibilities for future societies and their organization.
Listener Support and Community Engagement
The podcast operates entirely on listener support, which the hosts believe fosters a unique connection with their audience. They discuss the advantages of a patron-supported model, explaining that it allows them to focus solely on content without corporate influence or advertising. As their community grows, they note that this leads to more diverse discussions and interactions, ultimately enriching the podcast's content and direction. The hosts encourage audience engagement, seeking feedback and suggestions to enhance the show further.
The Intersection of Academia and Practical Solutions
The podcasters discuss Graeber's criticism of academia, noting that while scholars may effectively critique existing systems, they struggle to provide practical solutions for societal change. They express concern that critical analyses often overshadow actionable strategies, leaving listeners without clear paths forward. The hosts emphasize the need for an amalgamation of academic insight and real-world application to foster meaningful discussions about the future. This sentiment propels their desire to explore innovative ideas and potential solutions throughout subsequent episodes.
The Role of Empires in Shaping Society
The conversation touches upon the significant historical impact of empires, particularly in how they influenced social structures and hierarchical organization. It is argued that European contact with indigenous societies revealed both brutal hierarchies and alternative modes of living, leading to the colonialism that shaped the modern world. The hosts highlight that understanding history is not just about recounting events but also about recognizing how past narratives still inform current social constructs. They discuss the necessity of reevaluating these histories to better understand today's societal challenges and possibilities.
The Search for Meaningful Change
As the conversation progresses, the hosts express their desire for meaningful change that transcends the limitations of modern capitalist society. They reflect on how bureaucratic systems and profit-driven motives often hinder innovation and genuine connections. Acknowledging that there are societal pressures toward scarcity, they explore the potential for redesigning social structures that promote abundance and equality. The episode concludes with an optimistic outlook on the potential for discovering new paradigms and experimenting with alternatives that could lead to a more just and fulfilling societal framework.
Is the arrow of history one of progress, where things just keep getting more bureaucratic and more complex, or is there another story that we could tell about the past? This week we’re cracking open David Graeber and David Wengrow’s Dawn of Everything, which argues that the arrow of progress is flat out WRONG. Instead of there being a single story of history that requires us to live these enfeebled, isolated, matrixy lives, there is a whole world of possibility out there for what a society *could* look like, but they’ve been keeping it from you! Or have they? We enter into this exploration with some skepticism (at least Nastia does), because it’s possible that there are other competing systems that litter history, but surely there’s something meaningful about the fact that they’ve all been subsumed into the monetized beast that is the modern capitalist technotopia (or dystopia, the designation of which is inversely dependent on how much paid vacation leave you get and directly dependent to how much time you spend deboning chickens on the Perdue production line). Whatever the case may be, we are listening, Davids - because any change starts with an idea, and this book is full of ‘em.
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(00:00) Go!
(00:07:28) Modern Historical Narratives of the Arc of Progress
(00:17:18) The Davids' Alternative Interpretations of History
(00:23:40) Indigenous Critique of European Hierarchies
(00:33:08) Legacy of Roman Conquest and European Conflict
(00:47:40) Indigenous vs. Western Social Organization
(00:55:00) Militarism and Freedom
(01:03:24) The Arrow of Progress and Future Implications
(01:12:21) Economic Bailouts and Banking
(01:18:22) Indigenous Influence and New Ideas
(01:25:24) Government and Society
(01:35:09) Exploration of Alternative Societies
(01:46:05) Vision for a Future Beyond Traditional Structures
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PODCAST INFO: Anastasia completed her PhD studying bioelectricity at Columbia University. When not talking to brilliant people or making movies, she spends her time painting, reading, and guiding backcountry excursions. Shilo also did his PhD at Columbia studying the elastic properties of molecular water. When he's not in the film studio, he's exploring sound in music. They are both freelance professors at various universities.
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