The Reason Interview With Nick Gillespie

Martin Gurri: Political Chaos Brings Colossal Transformation

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Nov 27, 2024

Martin Gurri, a former CIA analyst and author, dives into the chaos of modern politics, explaining his support for Trump in the context of a rapidly changing landscape. He contrasts chaos with control, drawing insights from the Arab Spring and the evolving role of social media in political resistance. Gurri discusses the transformation of communities in the digital age and the rise of new coalitions. He also warns of impending chaos while maintaining a long-term optimism for societal evolution and the potential for meaningful change.

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INSIGHT

Control vs. Chaos

Martin Gurri voted for Donald Trump because he views Democrats as the party of control.
He believes they prioritize control over ideology, exemplified by climate change policies.

ANECDOTE

Seattle Scene

Gurri describes a scene in Seattle with "glittering people" walking past those who appear to be dead or incapacitated from drugs.
He sees this as the potential endpoint of excessive government control.

INSIGHT

Trump's Chaos

Trump is described as an "agent of chaos" whose actions are driven by attention.
He thrives on conflict and disruption as a means to draw attention to himself.

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Today's guest is Martin Gurri, a former CIA analyst who is a visiting fellow at the Mercatus Center and a columnist for The Free Press. A decade ago, in the wake of the Arab Spring and various "color" revolutions around the world, Gurri published The Revolt of the Public and the Crisis of Authority in the New Millennium, which analyzed how social media empowered ordinary people to resist control from above and anticipated the rise of Donald Trump, French President Emmanuel Macron, and Brexit.

Reason's Nick Gillespie spoke with Gurri shortly after the 2024 election at The Reason Speakeasy, a monthly, unscripted conversation in New York City with outspoken defenders of free thinking and heterodoxy in an age of intellectual conformity and groupthink. (Go here for information on Reason events.) They talked about why Gurri voted for Trump and why he's cautiously optimistic about the next four years.

0:00- Introduction

1:13- Why Gurri voted for Trump

4:46- Trump vs. Harris: Chaos vs. Control

8:40- Trump's first term 11:04- Trump's new coalition

14:33- Is authoritarianism coming to America?

19:00- Attention, Populism & Wild Hair

20:42- Colossal transformation awaits us

34:05- Creating communities of meaning in the digital age

36:22- The transformations enabled by the printing press

38:41- More chaos is coming 43:11- Lessons from Cuba

48:40- Arab Spring and the spark that overthrows a regime

50:37- Short term pessimistic, long term optimistic

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