Interview With Joan Kowalski, President of Bob Ross, Inc. – Protection and Enforcement of the Rights of the Famous Painter Bob Ross . Podcast Episode 157 – IP Fridays

https://www.bobross.com

The iconic artist Bob Ross, known for his gentle demeanor and captivating landscapes, continues to inspire millions around the world. Behind the scenes, a dedicated team works tirelessly to protect his legacy and intellectual property (IP). In a recent interview on the IP Friday’s podcast, Joan Kowalski, President of Bob Ross, Inc., shed light on the challenges and strategies involved in safeguarding the valuable IP of Bob Ross.

A Family Affair

Joan’s journey with Bob Ross, Inc. began in 1988, a few years after she graduated from college. Her family’s relationship with Bob Ross dates back even further. Joan’s mother attended one of Bob’s painting classes in 1982 and was so impressed that she and Joan’s father partnered with Bob to form a company aimed at promoting his work. This partnership laid the foundation for what would become a global phenomenon.

The Unique Challenge of Protecting a Person

One of the primary challenges Joan highlighted is the difficulty of protecting the IP of a person rather than a static piece of art or literature. Bob Ross’s image, voice, catchphrases, and even his mannerisms are all integral parts of his brand.

“When your intellectual property is a person… it’s a different ballgame,” Joan explained. Many people mistakenly believe that Bob Ross is a public domain figure, freely available for use. This misunderstanding complicates efforts to control how his image and likeness are used commercially.

The Double-Edged Sword of the Internet

The internet has amplified both the reach of Bob Ross’s work and the challenges of protecting it. While online platforms have introduced Bob to new generations, they have also made it easier for unauthorized use of his image and content.

“The internet is both a gem and a curse,” Joan noted. Unauthorized merchandise, digital forgeries, and misuse of Bob’s image in ways that do not align with his values have proliferated online. To combat this, Bob Ross, Inc. employs professional monitoring services and relies on vigilant fans who report infringements.

Selective Licensing and Brand Integrity

Joan emphasized the importance of being selective with licensing agreements. Over-licensing can dilute the brand and make it harder to control IP use. Bob Ross, Inc. carefully chooses partners who align with Bob’s legacy and values.

“Be a little bit choosy about who you give a license to… It just makes it easier to protect your assets,” Joan advised.

Navigating New Technologies: NFTs and AI

Emerging technologies like Non-Fungible Tokens (NFTs) and Artificial Intelligence (AI) present new IP challenges. Joan shared that the company was cautious about entering the NFT space, granting licenses only to a select few like Funko to maintain control and monitor the market effectively.

Regarding AI, Joan expressed concern over AI-generated images and voices that mimic Bob Ross without authorization. The company is exploring ways to address these issues, often relying on the right of publicity laws to protect Bob’s likeness.

Legal Protections and the Right of Publicity

The right of publicity is a legal doctrine that protects a person’s image, name, and likeness from unauthorized commercial use. Joan mentioned the company’s reliance on this right to enforce IP protections, especially as it pertains to new laws like Tennessee’s “Elvis Act,” which prohibits the unauthorized use of a person’s likeness through AI.

Advice for IP Protection

Towards the end of the interview, Joan offered valuable advice for others looking to protect their IP:

1. Be Selective with Licensing: Choose partners who respect your brand and have values aligned with yours.
2. Professional Monitoring: Don’t attempt to monitor and protect your IP alone. Employ professional services that specialize in IP protection.
3. Educate the Public: Work on informing fans and the general public about the importance of respecting IP laws, especially when it comes to individuals.
4. Stay Informed on Legal Developments: Keep abreast of new laws and regulations that may affect your IP rights, especially with the rapid advancement of technology.

Continuing Bob Ross’s Legacy

Joan and the team at Bob Ross, Inc. remain committed to preserving the integrity of Bob’s work. Their efforts ensure that fans worldwide can continue to enjoy and be inspired by Bob Ross while respecting the legal protections that keep his legacy intact.

“We’ve been at this for 40 years now. I think we’re doing pretty good,” Joan concluded with pride.

The full transcript:

Kenneth Suzan: Our guest today on the IP Friday’s podcast is Joan Kowalski. Joan is the president of Bob Ross, Inc. Bob Ross is a true icon in the art world. He is an American painter, art instructor, and both creator and host of the acclaimed television series, The Joy of Painting, which aired from 1983 through 1994 on public television, both in the United States and in other markets around the world.

Kenneth Suzan: Joan started working for Bob Ross, Inc. in 1988, a few years after graduating from college. She answered 1-800 number phone calls, wrote letters, and processed mail orders with Jane Ross as her supervisor.

Kenneth Suzan: On the official website for Bob Ross at bobross.com, Bob’s legacy is captured best. Quote, “He’s recognized everywhere as one of the most iconic and memorable personalities on public television, with his gentle approach and homespun humor. Bob Ross has taught, inspired, and entertained millions of people around the country and around the world.” Close quote.

Kenneth Suzan: Branding, licensing, monitoring, and enforcement are front and center for Bob Ross, Inc. And I am pleased to have Joan Kowalski on our podcast today so we can get a clear picture on how this innovative company protects the valuable IP of Bob Ross worldwide.

Kenneth Suzan: Welcome, Joan, to the IP Friday’s podcast.

Joan Kowalski: Hi, Kenneth. Thank you for having me.

Kenneth Suzan: Joan, can you tell our listeners a bit about your family, their relationship to Bob Ross, and how you became president of Bob Ross, Inc.?

Joan Kowalski: I sure can. My mother took a painting class with Bob all the way back probably in 1982. She thought he was so remarkable that she went home at night and told my father, “I think I’ve stumbled on something. Let’s have dinner with him one night and talk to him.” And so they went to the local Waffle House because Bob loved eating breakfast for dinner. And they talked a little bit about what they could do to enhance his attendance in his classes. He was teaching up and down the East Coast pretty much. And they just sort of talked, and Bob told them some of his dreams and ideas.

Joan Kowalski: And they decided to form a little company and promote Bob wherever they could. And the classes turned into a television series, turned into what you see today, couldn’t be more proud.

Kenneth Suzan: Let’s dive right into the IP issues, Joan. What are some of the key issues that face your company with respect to protecting Bob Ross’s IP?

Joan Kowalski: There are some challenges, certainly. Most notably when your intellectual property is a person as opposed to a piece of art or a storyline or a book or something like that. When you are protecting a person, it’s a different ballgame, sort of, first of all, in that most people don’t realize that you can protect a person—his image, his name, the way he speaks, his voice, his mannerisms, his little quotes that he uses. These are, in fact, all protectable, which I think the vast majority of the public don’t realize. And that, I would say, is our biggest challenge, is trying to sort of overcome the idea that he’s sort of a public domain figure or he’s something that is sort of free to everyone to use, that his family is the owner, those sorts of things. I think the biggest challenge being protecting a person. It’s called right of publicity, and not everybody understands it.

Kenneth Suzan: What about the internet, Joan? How has the internet impacted brand protection? And what are some of the ways in which you monitor for infringing activity?

Joan Kowalski: So the internet is both a gem, a treasure, and a curse, which is probably true of anybody that has the need to protect intellectual property. You can lose control as it just sort of morphs farther and farther away from the core, and it just sort of becomes its own thing that you then have to try and rein in, explain that this isn’t necessarily—because it’s on the internet, it’s not necessarily available to you for your product. And it doesn’t help also that Bob Ross being just such a gentle, wonderful man, that he still did have in place certain controls over the way that people would portray him, both in life and online. And it’s just hard—I would say, again, the public just doesn’t necessarily understand. And the internet just doesn’t wholly understand that it’s not just a free-for-all.

Kenneth Suzan: What are some of the tools that you use to find out what’s going on? Do you work with services to monitor for infringement? Or do you yourself look at the internet? Or do you have fans that are writing to you? Or is it a combination of all of these things?

Joan Kowalski: So I will tell you that we do use a monitoring organization. And we’ve given them all of our literally hundreds of trademark certificates that we’ve applied for and been granted from around the world. They’ve put all of that into their database, and they go to town. And they start just scrubbing the internet of infringements. And again, right of publicity was sort of a hard concept for us to explain, even to the monitoring system. But they are getting the hang of that as well. And I will tell you also that we get a lot of emails from fans that just want to make sure they know that we are ferocious in making sure that Bob is shown and identified in the best positive light. We get a lot of emails from them saying, “Such and such company is using Bob’s face, and I just don’t like it, and I don’t think you will either.” Our fans are like our little policemen. They know that the goal is to keep Bob as wonderful as he is.

Kenneth Suzan: Now, I’ve seen a lot of merchandise in the last few years in my travels. I assume these were all mostly licensed products. What’s driving this trend? And can you comment on the need to protect IP?

Joan Kowalski: Yes. So the reason for the sudden—maybe in the last, I’d say, five, six, seven years, you may have started noticing a lot of product, a lot of non-painting products like socks and sweaters and t-shirts and puzzles and that sort of thing. And that comes from, first and foremost, Bob experienced an enormous and just lovely resurgence when we allowed Twitch TV, which is a very—it’s something that the kids watch, Twitch TV. They play video games on it. Yes. And they were opening a new channel called Creative, and they wanted to do a Bob Ross marathon to open this channel seven-ish years ago. And it was a huge success, a huge success. And this just created—it didn’t really create Bob Ross fans. They had always been fans. They just didn’t know that half of their friends were already fans and half of their family were already fans. So it’s like fans identified each other with each other, and it just exploded. It just exploded. And in response to that, we did start doing finally what Bob had always wanted, which was to kind of become a household name. And so we started satisfying this younger generation with lots and lots of products that they could enjoy and collect. And today’s younger generation loves to collect things and show them off to their friends and that sort of thing. So that’s where—but then again, that’s where we realized the intellectual property, the images, the name, the voice, his little quotes, that sort of thing started leaving us, started floating out farther and farther from our arm’s reach. This is about the time also that we determined that we could not scour the internet by ourselves anymore, which we had been doing for years, but just in-house, but that we had to sort of find ways to reach out as far as the intellectual property was going to try and maintain. There are certain things that Bob really, really wanted and that sort of fit into this. The one thing that I can think of is he was very, very proud of his painting technique, and he didn’t really want his name being used for other painting techniques. He had worked hard to develop this wet-on-wet technique of his. And so that’s one thing that we were and still are having to really be careful of is that people aren’t using his name and face to show other forms of painting with teachers that are not certified. That sort of thing has really, really, really bothered Bob and made him worry that the technique of his would sort of fade away as more and more people started sort of using his image to describe and teach other methods of painting. So that’s one thing that we’re doing a lot of. The other thing is that because there are not a lot of Bob Ross original paintings for sale out in the wild, we’re now having to deal with forgeries, which is something a little bit new for us. But we’re working on that as well. It’s funny because people that aren’t really used to art and studying various artists—Bob’s fans, by and large, aren’t studying artists and going to museums and that sort of thing. Their approach to art is something they can do themselves. And normally, if they see a painting that’s got a tree in it, they just naturally assume that Bob painted it. And forgers are sort of taking advantage of that. They’ll take a painting that’s not a Bob Ross painting, but it’s a landscape, and they’ll forge his signature on there and try to sell it. So we’re having to work with our monitor and with our attorneys with that particular subject, which is awfully painful. And I think Bob would have been terrified to think that people were doing that.

Kenneth Suzan: And another thing Bob probably would take issue at are these NFTs. I had read a few years ago that NFTs are an issue for your company. What do you do to protect against unauthorized NFTs bearing Bob’s work or his image?

Joan Kowalski: So NFTs are a very interesting animal. Maybe three years ago, they were absolutely the biggest thing ever. And we were very careful to only license maybe two of our licensees with the ability to create one NFT. We were really—mostly for the ability to monitor, we weren’t going gung-ho with NFTs so that we could watch better. And so that we knew that if there were only these two—Funko was one of the companies that we licensed an NFT to—but that we could chase and monitor and make sure that it wasn’t going out of control. So we were very hesitant to sign on with NFT creators. And there were bunches that came to us. And we knew that NFTs, unless it was Funko’s, could be scrubbed from the internet. Now, the good news is—or maybe not good news—but the thing about NFTs is they have quieted down quite a bit now. And they really—our monitor, again, is just in all the NFT marketplaces daily. And they’ve only found one in a very long time that is using our intellectual property to create NFTs. So I think the reason that we were able to sort of maintain and protect in regards to NFTs is because we just didn’t give licenses out like—we had a tight control over the market. Yeah. Very tight control. And I’ll tell you why. It’s because I didn’t understand NFTs enough to feel comfortable to hand out licenses. It’s a silly reason, but I just could never wrap my head around the appeal or how they work and what they were. But boy, we got pressure like crazy. We got inquiries daily to get a license for NFTs. And we just held back on that. And I think in the end, mostly just to be able to control and to watch and be able to see clearly what is the infringement and what has to be studied and that sort of thing.

Kenneth Suzan: Joan, let’s talk about AI because there’s not a day that goes by that I don’t hear something about AI. Are you worried about the threat of AI? Have you seen anything yet with respect to Bob’s image and likeness and voice? What are your plans in dealing with AI?

Joan Kowalski: I think everybody’s a little nervous about AI. And it could also be because, again, I don’t think we have a full understanding of it. I only know that we’re being infringed on in regards to AI when I see it. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be able to explain it to you from the ground up because it’s just still very complicated in my mind. But again, with AI—and we are seeing some images that are being created of Bob. Lately, we’ve been seeing a lot of pictures of Bob looking like he’s been beat up and bleeding and black eyes and cuts on his face and that sort of thing. And that’s when I know that AI has been in play because it’s clearly not real, but it sure does look like him. So there is fear always in that way. It’s not like it used to be where you could just tell automatically that this was a picture that was taken from somewhere and used for something, end of story. But now with this, there’s—and again, I think it has to do with just not handing out licenses right and left and worrying about the consequences later. We’ve been approached by lots of entities that we’ve rejected a licensing opportunity just because the protection—the more you give out, the more you’re having to monitor and protect. So we’re a little bit choosy, and I think we’ll be the same where AI is concerned if it’s controllable. Again, I have to say that with us having the protective tool of right of publicity, it does help that it’s much more definable that the person, if used in commerce—and Bob had granted right of publicity to his company—that you can more quickly and easily identify AI fake voice sounds, fake signatures, fake faces, AI-generated sort of things that normally, if it’s a person and you’ve got right of publicity, it’s an easier go to attempt to protect and enforce and litigate if needed.

Kenneth Suzan: Earlier this year, Joan, in March, the state of Tennessee signed into law the Ensuring, Likeness, Voice, and Image Security Act, or known as the Elvis Act, which is designed to protect musicians from the unauthorized use of artificial intelligence. In particular, this state law prohibits people from using AI from mimicking an individual’s voice without first obtaining their permission. Violation carries a Class A misdemeanor under Tennessee law, and civil actions can also be filed. Your thoughts about this new law?

Joan Kowalski: I actually, when I heard about it, I freaked out a little bit because it’s almost identical to what it is that we’ve been able to protect through right of publicity. Voice—people don’t understand that your voice is still yours. It is protectable, depending on how you do that, whether the person is living or deceased. And it’s very close. I’ve read a little bit about it. And it’s just sort of very close to what we’re dealing with protecting Bob Ross, the full person. And I think that the idea that you don’t have to sort of splice away and explain using somebody’s voice or mimicking somebody’s voice is really the same as using somebody’s face or name. There isn’t any—if protected properly and if given the rights to the certain attributes of a human, it makes it just a lot easier moving forward.

Kenneth Suzan: But with respect to the right of publicity, Joan, I understand back in 2018 that your company ran into a challenge with respect to the right of publicity. What was that challenge? And can you comment on how that was resolved?

Joan Kowalski: We were challenged in 2018 simply because of, again, the public not understanding right of publicity. And by public, I mean that one of Bob’s family members didn’t understand Bob’s company and what he had set up within his corporation that would then carry us after his death into being able to, in his honor, commercialize his features, his being. And again, I think because of what I said at the top of the hour, it’s a hard concept unless you really understand it. So the family member just did sort of naturally assume that Bob being his relative and a lot of the public behind him thinking that these Bob Ross attributes would belong to Bob’s family. Now, the part that was missing was that Bob had already granted the rights of publicity to his company that he and three other partners—his wife and my parents—had already granted to the corporation back in the 1980s that he wanted and he knew. He knew that the company could do what he wanted once he died. And this is the reason that he granted these rights to the company so that we could continue. We’ve been at this for 40 years now. I think we’re doing pretty good. Do you agree?

Kenneth Suzan: Oh, yes. No, I’ve been a fan of Bob Ross for many, many years. So it’s certainly an honor to talk with you.

Joan Kowalski: That is wonderful.

Kenneth Suzan: We’re coming up towards the end of our interview today. But I was wondering, can you provide to our listeners any best practices for protecting IP? What should they be doing? Are there things that you do regularly that you could share with them?

Joan Kowalski: I would say I have two things, and I’m so glad you’re asking. The first thing being to be a little bit choosy about who you give a license to. And not because you do or don’t like the product, or do or don’t like the company, or whatever. But it just makes it easier to protect your assets when you are very diligent in who you give a license to. If you start sending licenses to everyone that inquires, it just gets farther and farther and farther away from you. The second thing I would suggest is don’t try to protect everything yourself. We did try to do that for years. And it just—something that goes out into the internet just multiplies like crazy. You need a professional monitor to help with that.

Kenneth Suzan: Very, very important words of wisdom. Joan, I want to thank you so much for spending time with us today on the IP Friday’s podcast. This has been fascinating. And I thank you for your time today.

Joan Kowalski: Thank you very much. I enjoyed it.