In this episode, John and Jason close off the 2023 Johns Hopkins University Excellence in Online Teaching Symposium with a live podcast recording, summarizing the day’s sessions and interacting with the audience around 6 Pillars of Humanizing Online Learning in the Second Half. See complete notes and transcripts at www.onlinelearningpodcast.com

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Links and Resources:

6 Guideposts - Slide Deck (via Gamma.app)
Johns Hopkins Excellence in Online Teaching Symposium
Jana Lay-Hwa Bowden, Leonie Tickle & Kay Naumann (2021) The four pillars of tertiary student engagement and success: a holistic measurement approach, Studies in Higher Education, 46:6, 1207-1224, DOI: 10.1080/03075079.2019.1672647
Peabody Institute and their “Path to Funding” guide
Advancing Diversity in AI Education and Research Symposium - Stanford
Dr. Michelle Miller Substack - Teaching from the Same Side and the idea of “same-side pedagogy”

Theme Music: Pumped by RoccoW is licensed under a Attribution-NonCommercial License.

Transcript

We use a combination of computer-generated transcriptions and human editing. Please check with the recorded file before quoting anything. Please check with us if you have any questions!

[00:00:00] Introducer: Welcome everyone. It's been a great day and we have. A very fun way that we're going to be ending today.

So this is our final session. I appreciate everyone greatly for attending our inaugural excellence and online teaching symposium and we're going to be ending our session with a live recorded podcast. We have Jason Johnston and John Nash, go ahead and take it away whenever you are ready.

[00:00:33] John Nash: Hi, I'm John Nash and I'm here with Jason Johnston

[00:00:36] Jason Johnston: Hey, John. Hey, everyone. And this is Online Learning in the Second Half, the online learning podcast.

[00:00:44] John Nash: Yeah, and we are doing this podcast to let you all in on a conversation we've been having and to let you be part of the conversation that we are having about online education.

Look, online learning has had its chance to be great and some of it is, but there's still quite a ways to go. What are we going to do to get to the next stage, Jason?

[00:01:05] Jason Johnston: That's a great question. How about we make a podcast and talk about it?

[00:01:10] John Nash: That sounds great. What do you want to talk about?

[00:01:13] Jason Johnston: Today I think it'd be great to continue our theme of how to humanize online learning in the second half and to do it with a number of our friends here.

So today we want to not only do a podcast, but do a session here at the Johns Hopkins Excellence in Online Teaching Symposium, the first ever. Is this right, Olysha? We're on the first ever.

[00:01:36] Olysha Magruder: That's correct. This is the inaugural symposium. So you're a part of the new wave.

[00:01:43] Jason Johnston: We're so glad to be here. Thank you for the invitation.

And this is exciting that we're here and we're doing a live session where we are recording. And we had the auspicious and difficult task of trying to bring a little summary to this day. It's been a good day, hasn't it, John?

[00:02:01] John Nash: Yeah, it's been amazing. We've been in every session that we could attend.

We split up and took some notes along the way about what the overarching themes were and where we see some opportunity, but we're so excited to see what you all think as well and what you took away.

[00:02:17] Jason Johnston: Yeah, so here's how we are planning to proceed in the next little bit here. Our ideal as we were looking at the day is to try to give us some guidelines to talk about. We tried to pull a few quotes. We have a A little bit of an outline that will guide us, but first we thought we should probably introduce ourselves.

John, you wanna go first?

[00:02:41] John Nash: Yeah, sure. I'm John Nash. I am an associate professor at the University of Kentucky in the Department of Educational Leadership Studies, where I'm also the Director of graduate studies. We are an all online. Department and a graduate program offering master's and the doctorate at the EDD and PhD level, and I'm also the director of the laboratory on design thinking at the University of Kentucky, where we look at human centered design and its application in organizations and leadership in schools.

[00:03:11] Jason Johnston: And I am Jason Johnston. I'm at the University of Tennessee, Knoxville. I'm the executive director of online learning and course production. So, my big thing here is helping to stand up online programs, and I do it with a fabulous team of instructional designers, some of which are here. That's not the only reason why I said that, but some of them.

And media personnel who help to stand up online learning here at the University of Tennessee and do an amazing job of that. That's who we are. We also would like to just keep in mind that this is a recorded session. We would like to, as we go along, talk to all of you and hear from you as we proceed.

Please feel free to, unmute your mic as you have something to say or questions. And to quote Dr. Olysha Magruder I'm not sure what's gonna happen. And this is this was her, this is her plug for our session today was that I'm not sure what's going to happen in that one.

[00:04:13] Jason Johnston: We're not either, because part of this session is actually hearing from all of you, but we do have a few guiding ideas and guideposts that will help guide our discussion. John, you want to show our slides?

[00:04:29] Jason: And those who want to follow along at home can find these slides in the show notes.

[00:04:32] John Nash: And if the link that you got in the chat should track with what we're doing here today. And this document is made with the gamma. app. And so this document is a presentation deck. It's also a living document. It's a webpage and it's a handout. And so it's the new shimmer, if you will, of media.

And if you get that, then I love you. So browse through it before and after the session, as we. grow in our conversation in this hour. Some of that material may show up in here and please reuse and remix because we want you to do that. And so yeah, we're not sure what's going to happen in this one, but I think it's going to go well.

And we want to start to talk about being human to each other. The focus of our, podcast is to think about the second half of life for online learning. And we know it probably has much more life than we have in ourselves. But as we noted in the beginning, we think it's had its chance to be good, but we think that there's another chance here to be even better.

This whole day has really been about that. And so as we go forward, we want to talk about what we picked up on today and also really hear from what you picked up on. So Jason, do you want to say a little bit about where to find our podcast after this is done and people can listen to this?

[00:05:52] Jason Johnston: Yeah, onlinelearningpodcast. com. That URL actually will take you to our entire podcast. Not only is this session going to be edited and probably put out there, Maybe January, John but we just released on Monday, hot off the digital press a conversation with Dr. Olysha Magruder.

And so you can go check it out and listen to that podcast. Had a great conversation. One of the reasons why we're here today is that connection. Please listen in, let us know what you want to hear about. Like this session, we want this podcast to be a conversation and to be talking with all of you.

Yeah. And around the topics and subjects that you are interested in.

And without further ado John and I were trying to think of some larger themes. We guessed at a number of them before this day begun by, by looking at some of the session titles, by thinking about some of the ways in which we're thinking about humanizing online learning. But we have these six guideposts, if you would, and I think I was thinking about guideposts because my home here in Knoxville.

Pretty much every side of the driveway is a drop off and so there's a little turnaround that you know if you're somebody like me that drives a really cool car like a long, minivan There's a fair bit there's a fair bit of maneuvering to be done where I have to go into this turnaround And move forward what I did when I first got this place is to put in guide posts for myself so that I did not want to end up with a minivan in the ditch.

My own ditch. of my own making and and so putting in guideposts, especially at these kind of key spots as I'm coming up over the top, coming onto the driveway and as I'm doing into this turnaround putting some that were lit, other ones that were just like those reflectors others that actually are barriers that don't permit me to go over some of the spots.

And so today, if you, will walk with us, these six guideposts for humanizing online learning. Some of what was drawn from today, some from our podcast of this year and our own thinking. And how we're going to proceed in these is that we're going to talk about the guideposts, give a, maybe a little summary.

Couple quotes that we found from today and then open it up for you for any other things that you heard, maybe particularly from today. So maybe a little bit of a focus on on today's session. My one request would be that we're now down to less than 10 minutes for each one of these guideposts. And just try to keep the comments fairly quick if you can, as we get there. Shall we go on to guidepost number one, John? Yeah, let's go

[00:08:33] John Nash: to guidepost number one. And that would be this notion of being human to your students and yourself. And the two gems that I picked up on. from this came from Flower Darby, and it was this idea of sharing a little of yourself. And this idea of connection doesn't happen by accident. This, what did you think of these And particularly, I think really not just sharing a little of yourself, sharing quite a bit of yourself if you're comfortable as a model for students to be able to do that back with you.

And the, that the connection doesn't happen by accident really feels like a a thread that went through almost all of the sessions today. If I. I remember I texted Jason in the middle of one of the sessions that the word intentionality is just coming up every time.

Everything is, must be intentional. Nothing really happens with hope or or luck. And back to you all. What struck you as Flower was talking about these things and this idea of really being human to your students? come off mic and and think with us.

[00:09:40] Jason Johnston: And if you would, when you come off mic, would you say your name and where you are right now, like institution? would be perfect. And then, whatever it is you have to say.

[00:09:49] Jody: Okay, I'll come in, John. Joe DeBonis Dublin City University, or DCU. Loved the way Flower shared pictures of her family.

It's something I would love to do, I just never thought it would be appropriate, but of course it's fine. So it's something I will do in future.

[00:10:11] John Nash: I agree, Jody. I had not been so apt to do that kind of sharing at a level. I bring a, try to bring a level of energy and enthusiasm for the topic, but had not thought to talk about how my wife is an important thought partner and everything I do and an important critic, but I don't honor her the way I might that she has.

And so I'm really going to think about doing that. And Austin is getting some love in the chat because I love this idea of that luck is the residue of design.

It's almost like this idea of that luck favors the prepared mind. I don't know if you want to say more about that on Mike Austin, but I really love that comment. it's very tweet worthy.

[00:10:49] Austin: Yeah, I appreciate that.

I'm Austin Tremblay and I work at Johns Hopkins University in the Center for Learning Design and Technology.

I just think it's one thing to think that results are purely contingent on luck, as if we have no agency in the matter, but. to think that we can, put plans in place and create our own results rather than relying on just, this passive act of being lucky.

I think that's a nice way to think about it.

[00:11:19] John Nash: Wonderful. And I just also want to give a shout out to Sarah Schunkweiler, if you want to say something, but this lovely idea of really going forward with an informal module that has intro videos with dogs in the background in real life.

Do you want to add anything to that?

[00:11:37] Sara: I'm Sarah Schunkweiler. I'm an instructional designer also in Olysha's group and I work with Austin, but I'm also a faculty member, so I record informal videos myself. So my engineering professors have started doing that also.

And since having their kids walk in, having the dog there, the dog is there during office hours. So why not be there during the informal videos as well? And students are highly amused by the dog trying to get out of the office behind the instructor.

[00:12:06] John Nash: That's great. Awesome. Jason, do you feel like you want to go on to number two?

[00:12:10] Participant 1: Sure. Yeah, those are great. Thank you. Thank you for being brave all to speak out on this live recording. Number two, encourage students to be human to one another. We can set the tone ourselves. As teachers as well As we are setting the pace and the culture, and as Austin was talking about the design of the course, we can encourage students to be human to one another Joe said, , do you have a way to In the course to meet other students so you can help them and they can help you stressing the social pillar of engagement and then Flower Darby had talked about adding emotional presence to the community of inquiry framework of social and cognitive and teaching if you guys were in that session or you remember the three kind of concentric circles that overlap, and in the middle you have a learning experience where there's typically social, cognitive, and teaching presences within an educational setting.

And Flower talked about how this emotional presence helps support the whole thing. And this is where it's not just encouraging student to student interaction. Help each other with your homework or student to student assignments, do this assignment together, but actual support, this emotional support where they can be human to one another, not just act like a, human.

Any other thoughts on this one? What what other ways can we encourage students to be human to one another in our online classes?

[00:13:39] Mike Reese: I can jump in if it helps out. This is Mike Reese from Johns Hopkins Center for Teaching Excellence and Innovation. I was in Joe's session and this idea of social engagement came from a model that he was presenting on four pillars of student engagement that came from an article by Boden Tickle and Nauman in 2021.

And I think what was really helpful when he was discussing this was giving examples of how to engage both in synchronous and asynchronous environments and really stressing the importance of peer support, regardless of what the modality is and for students. to be able to support each other that requires them to have some sort of human connection.

[00:14:24] Jason Johnston: That's great. That's a great resource talking about those four pillars. , very helpful. Thank you.

[00:14:30] John Nash: That was good because the those pillars Mike, they, when he talked about the affect of emotional engagement, do you feel safe and welcome in class?

Do you have an opportunity to do your best? Do you have friends or teachers that recognize and praise you for doing good work among other things? Those almost have to be preconditions for the part where you're saying, " do I have a way to meet other students? I feel good about meeting other students.

And yeah, I really like that.

Any other comments on encouraging students to be human to one another?

[00:15:03] Andrea C: If I could, I've got two things. I'm Andrea Srevec, and I am the Director of the Office of Faculty Development and Advancement at the South Dakota School of Mines and Technology. One is setting ground rules for your class. So just that basic, you're going to respect each other.

If we do any discussion boards, try to keep your comments on topic. But also I taught an asynchronous class for the first time. And, in engineering, they don't necessarily like to use the discussion boards. It's just not something that they're like, let me run some numbers and don't make me talk.

But I told them before the class even started, you're going to have to be able to upload videos in this class. And you're going to have to upload videos of yourself in this class. So I had them do introduction videos. And they had to comment on each other's introduction videos. And it was just nice in a class where they were never pretty much going to be in the same room together or online together, to at least have them know who else was there, so that when they got back, because it was a summer class, when they got back on campus, they would know who was in their department.

And it seemed to work pretty well. They were really quite good about responding and, oh, I play an instrument too, kind of thing.

[00:16:13] John Nash: Beautiful. Thank you so much.

[00:16:16] Jason Johnston: I was going to say before you go on to the next one, thinking about, and this kind of ties into another one of our, one of our guideposts is just thinking about the different contexts, right? We're all. In different domains, in different contexts, teaching in different kinds of classes, and what might look like a really good human thing to do in one kind of class may not be the same thing for another program or another class, and there may be different ways to approach that.

That's great. John, number three? Sure.

[00:16:44] John Nash: Number three is we should endeavor to create content that is human centric. And we heard this across several of the topics today. Flower talked about how engagement precedes learning. This is an important notion to keep in mind. And not as much AI references today.

A lot of really just good ID stuff today. But Luke talked about how AI is a Kickstarter. I know you were in that session, jason I didn't go to that

[00:17:13] Participant 1: one. yeah. Can I just say that the idea behind that is that. rather than letting AI take front and center and removing some of the human centricness of our classes, we use AI to help us be more human in the classes by our design, to be more thoughtful and to help spur ideas that are more human.

I thought that was a great idea. Yeah,

[00:17:36] John Nash: that is a great idea. And it's a strategy I've been using in my own courses to use AI as this Kickstarter for instructional design to create active learning environments and activities for my students, but the students never, really interface with AI.

They just interface with the good learning that I've been able to create with the help of AI. And then Becky was talking about interface design impacting the learning experience. And so there's an aesthetic portion to this that really brings in learners. And then this idea of education happening in major and minor learning spaces where the interaction is taking place from learner to teacher, from learner to learner really good examples there. But how does this strike you all? We're talking about engagement, but we're also talking about AI. We're talking about aesthetic design and the importance of interface design to get us to a point where the content is really human centric.

Does this strike you all as worthy?

Great, please. Yeah, Caroline.

[00:18:38] Caroline: Yeah, it certainly does strike me as worthy.

My name is Caroline Egan and I am a program manager for the Center for Teaching Excellence and Innovation at Hopkins.

And I think it's going to be an evergreen topic with digitally delivered content, whether that's asynchronous or synchronous. And, I think that having such concrete, such great concrete examples like Flower Darby's "show me a photo of yourself" is just an excellent way of taking small steps towards, encouraging that humanity and the digital interface.

[00:19:11] John Nash: Nice.

[00:19:12] Jason Johnston: Yeah, I think there are a lot of great examples today of that, like the flower derby example. One of the reasons why I thought that last quote was great, about education happening in major and minor learning spaces, is that it helped me rethink even the title that we put on this number three, which is creating content that is human centric.

It could be creating learning spaces in general that it's human centric. It could be fill in the blank that is human centric, in terms of our interactions or ways in which we we structure our courses, our grading or our assignments. I think what helped me here is to get me out of thinking about online courses.

And John and I we talk about this all the time, but there's such a knee jerk reaction to think about online courses as content. And I fully say that, yeah we were making these titles and we just didn't even really think about the fact that, our knee jerk reaction was to talk about, content that is human centric, but I would like to just offer that I think maybe we should move more into this idea of learning spaces So like the examples that was just given and so on it's about the interactions about the relationships about all of it that is human centered.

[00:20:29] John Nash: It seems

like the more we talk about this topic, the more we realize that, and I love your idea about content, that the online courses are not content. The online courses are experiences. And so in order to create a great experience, we have to thread in all of these other things with intentionality and that's aesthetics that is engagement that is authentic bringing our real selves and then having really great active experiences on the learning side as the learner goes through the journey.

John

[00:21:01] Mike Reese: and Jason, I, if I can jump in, this is Mike Reese again, there was a, you've got some great examples here. I heard them throughout all the sessions, but one of the best that I heard today. Was our colleagues at the Peabody Conservatory. They're leading a course that is essentially preparing artists to go out and take their talents into the world and teach them the business of being an artist.

And it's not just about making money. It's really to ensure that these artists know how can they be entrepreneurs to advocate for themselves. so that their talents will be seen and heard by other people. And what was so exciting to me about this, and it really speaks to this third principle here, is that it's not about just simply creating an environment where it's human centric.

But it is a curriculum that has been designed to allow them to go out and connect with others and really allow their talents to be shown by others. And one of the great things about this program that they've put together. is the course for the Peabody students has been so successful that they have gone on to share a open education resource, a book, that anybody can access to learn these same lessons.

I just threw a link to it in the chat that any artist now can benefit from what they've developed at the Peabody Conservatory.

[00:22:27] John Nash: That's fantastic. It's, what strikes me as you talk about what they're accomplishing there is that they're building agency within the learners to go out and tackle the world in real life ways with the skills they pick up in the course. That's wonderful.

We've got that link and we'll put it underneath this topic here. So it's everybody can have that.

Great. So let's go to four

[00:22:49] Jason Johnston: Jason. Yeah. And this one is treating humans as individuals. So rather than just thinking about humanity as a whole becoming increasingly aware that there's a lot of different humans and that there are ways in which we can respond to all of humanity in the more individualistic kind of ways within online learning if we take the extra effort one of the quotes that I found was talking about learning styles aren't real, but we can use AI to guide us for various learning preferences thinking about adapting online learning to help with individual Activities and to meet the diverse needs and interests and so on of your students.

So some of this is really about, adaptation as a instructor and thinking about that. We talk about here, some about, this idea that here, meaning University of Tennessee, the idea that, when you're talking to teachers about their online courses, having to remind them sometimes that this course isn't for them, right?

It's for the individuals that they're there to serve and figuring out ways that we can adapt it to serve even within sub pockets within their own courses. What are some ways that you've either heard today or that you can speak from experience about how we can adapt our online learning to treat humans more as individuals?

[00:24:20] Olysha Magruder: This is Olesha again, Johns Hopkins University. I wanted to mention. That Jodi from Dublin City University presented about the tool Flip, and I feel like this gives an opportunity for educators to have the students interact in a way that they prefer, so you can do a video, or you can do audio, you can comment with a video, you can do text, so it gives them an opportunity.

And I know there's a lot of other tools that do that as well, but she demonstrated a really awesome way to do that I think that connects to this idea.

[00:24:54] Jason Johnston: Yeah, I love it. Yeah, and almost a reverse in some ways of UDL thinking about multiple ways of representation. There's a Perhaps giving students multiple ways of responding, right?

And so if they feel more comfortable with this particular way or that way or whatever in the minute it can respond to them depending on How they're you know tuned in and where their comfort level is. That's good.

[00:25:18] John Nash: I think about taking a page from the p12 world where I've come out of a meeting last week here in the Commonwealth of Kentucky where all the superintendents of public schools were meeting talking about this idea of a portrait of a learner and in this effort, an attempt to individualize instruction on core topics that really can't change, so math, social studies, history, what have you, but the work that the student does is predicated on their own personal interests and what they want to do and what they are interested in.

And so they're able to work cross curricularly, if that's a term we can use with the personal interest of the student. We woven into the curriculum. And the outcomes that are necessary for them to be successful in school. So that's I think about is treating humans as individuals. We're also learning about their personal interests what they really are wanting to do, what they like to do, and then how the content can be adapted so that they can apply those interests within the content.

[00:26:27] Jason Johnston: Yeah, that's good. And we you and I, John, have talked about this concern about the industrialization of online learning, where it tends to mass market to the larger, swath. And I think that is a nice response to that thinking about , the more personalization. And yeah, that's good.

Other comments on that one?

[00:26:49] Mello: Hi. Hello. Can you hear me? Yes. Hi. Hi. I'm Mello. I'm coming also from the Center for Teaching Excellence and Innovation at Johns Hopkins. And I really like number four. It reflects on one of the. Sessions that I went to, and I think I see some folks, it was the one about equity. I see Sarah Shankweiler was there, Chris Sett was there, but basically they're talking about decolonial ways.

Of engaging students and students with disabilities and basically the more, oh, and Rolando, thank you. The more we engage and allow people to embrace. Like their identities, the more this is like basically helping them live authentically. I feel like this is hitting at that core, just when you give students that space to be authentic and acknowledge like who they are and what their struggles are and what their joys are, then they would feel more human and they would share more of themselves.

[00:28:02] Jason Johnston: Yeah, I love it. Yeah, that was a great session. And I agree. And I would say treating humans as individuals is maybe a first step. And we've got a couple other points that maybe even point to that. a little bit or encourage us a little bit more to be actively creating spaces for for inclusivity.

And maybe John, you want to go on to number five and since that's a good lead into that

[00:28:25] John Nash: yeah, absolutely. Which is this notion of making space for all humans. And we picked up on on four different things that struck us as supporting this idea. And of course, back to Flower Darby and thinking about this idea of excellence in online teaching is an equity imperative.

And so when we think about people being their authentic selves and coming in with their own identity, then we can really create this culture of inclusion and really advocate, support, and empower faculty to as Sarah was noting. Nice thoughts around UDL and how do we make a meal for a lot of different people?

You've got this sort of buffet, and so you have to be thoughtful and intentional again. This idea of intentionality is always coming up. And then this notion here from Rolando, which is being focused on teaching accessibility and supporting efforts to teach accessibly. Yeah, really nice.

What do you all take from this this idea of making space for all humans? And I think Melo Really teed that up for us here thinking about that. What else strikes you as we try to make space for all humans?

[00:29:39] Jason Johnston: Melissa, go ahead.

[00:29:40] Mel R.: My name is Mel Rizzuto. I'm a instructional designer in the Center for Learning Design and Technology in the Whiting School at Hopkins. And I love this idea of making space for all humans. And in a session that I facilitated earlier with a few of my former colleagues, we talk about how we're going to how we developed a tool to assist faculty with evaluating their online teaching practices.

And we were very careful to include a standard about immediacy and inclusion in that tool that we developed because we really wanted faculty to reflect on their own practices and, their strategies for fostering belonging for students and then also modeling communication and positive messaging for students.

And so I think a lot of times we get caught up in just the design of the course itself. And we, I don't want to say we fail, but We neglect the professional development needed for faculty in the actual delivery of their instruction. And so I think we have to be mindful of that.

[00:30:47] John Nash: Really nice.

Mello, did you want to add something?

Oh, no,

[00:30:50] Mello: I totally agree. We're talking about students here, but faculty are also humans. Staff is also humans. We're thinking about training the students, but. We're also should train ourselves so that we can better train others.

[00:31:07] John Nash: Yeah, we have a long runway in front of us as as instructional designers, as supporters of those who want to do good instructional design.

There's a lot of faculty who want to do well, but don't have the tools. And I think that they should be considered part of our human set that we want to bring about here.

[00:31:25] Kim V: I just want to. Add in this is Kim Vars. I'm an instructional designer at the Center for Learning Design and Technology at Johns Hopkins. And in the session just before this one that I moderated Chris Ryder and Pankaj were perfectly paired in a way that Pankaj talked about and even showed this perfect image of these really uncomfortable chairs, That you remember from sitting in during your childhood and in school and talking about how you're not just putting content up on the screen to get the content across.

As if you were to hand off a textbook to someone, but instead Chris was talking about creating that space that is comfortable for students for all students to feel as though they have a place there that they can communicate. And I know as an instructional designer, I often think. Most about getting the space to exist and not necessarily ensuring that space truly is comfortable for everyone, which is like, everyone has been saying today, truly not an accident.

It has to be intentionally designed in a way that allows all folks like Dr. Hobson was saying anybody who has any kind of learning or eating preference to be offered this buffet that that they can pick and choose from and craft their own perfect meal in their comfortable course. A lot of work to be done for sure.

[00:33:02] John Nash: Yeah, definitely. Fantastic.

[00:33:05] Jason Johnston: It made me think of as well. What Sarah Schunkweiler, who is here, talked about the steep steps, both perceived and actual barriers she spoke about in her session there that was alongside of those the visual icon of the classic education building with these big steps that went up and the pillars in between and so on, and how those that, whether they can manage that or not, When they perceive that, it becomes this visual icon for spaces that they maybe are Not welcoming, or if they were welcome, they're not welcomed enough that they could actually go into and made me think of probably the first story we heard of the day, which was Flower Darby talking about her Pilates class and finding this person who was lost in the hallway because nobody was in there. The lights weren't on. It didn't feel like a welcoming place. And so they didn't think that this is where they belonged. And I think all of this fits together for creating this. Good space for all humans.

[00:34:10] John Nash: Good. Should we do number six then, Jason? Sure.

[00:34:14] Jason Johnston: Yeah, sounds good.

John and I were quickly Brainstorming and wrapping up right before this session, talking about today's wonderful symposium, and we had come up with a number of these before, but we wanted to create a space that was a bit of a wild card. What, what doesn't fit? And this was actually one that we just arrived on an hour ago, and we've talked about before, but it just fit well, in addition to creating inclusive space and treating individuals humans as individuals.

Number six, recognizing that not all humans are present. So whatever space that you are in, wherever you're making decisions, whether they're design decisions or teaching decisions, Not all humans are going to be represented there, and it's important to be thinking beyond beyond those spaces and what we see in front of us.

And John and I talk about this all the time. We're two, admittedly, middle aged. educated white guys, right? We have a very similar culture. We can talk about a lot of the same things, but one of the things we strive to do within our podcasts is bring other voices in because we recognize that we can't understand and we don't see all the corners and we need to be able to see outside of ourselves.

So this was a great session, really was a mini session talking about neocolonialism first earlier in the day, Luke Hobson talked about how it's not just DEI, it's also about JB, justice and belonging, moves on beyond that Christelle Dacius was talking about the idea of the Northern Hemisphere versus the Southern Hemisphere and how too often that we are essentially using up the resources from the Southern Hemisphere, speaking as somebody that originally was from Haiti.

And so she said, what is digital neocolonialism? Online education is another vessel of imperialist practice to gather human and biological resources through technological means.

And she also went on to say resources are digital human data. We haven't taken the time to realize the impact data that is most likely being sold back as product.

Anyways, I thought these were very heavy statements impactful for me because they were a different voice than than maybe we were hearing earlier in the day. And a voice that takes things a step further as, Represented in the title beyond beyond just thinking about the typical typical groups that perhaps that we're making these decisions in.

[00:36:49] John Nash: Yeah. Part of this reminds me the conversation that's going on in parallel around the fight to reclaim AI and other things from big techs control. And you look at the story of Timnit Gebru, and the work to think about. How content moderation is going on in other corners and this is really affecting the mental health of moderators and all in the name of trying to keep the machine going as it were and so how do we think about what we do day by day as online instructors, online designers of experiences and keep the recognition in mind that not the way it's been presented to us may not be the best way it's been presented to us.

I don't know. Yeah. I don't know if I put that so well, but I'm also appreciating Sarah Schunkweller's comment here that students who might be forced to use illegal means to access online education and that digital human data can be dangerous. How does this all strike you as we think about this last sixth point?

[00:37:51] Jason Johnston: Yeah, thoughts on this. How does that strike you? What other ways can we be more mindful of this?

[00:37:56] Austin: This is Austin Tremblay from Johns Hopkins University again, and I just thought this was fantastic to include because if you are establishing guideposts, but your vantage point doesn't include You know, the totality of the space you're designing around, and that's a dangerous way to design guideposts.

So I think that this informs that idea of, the design of the course itself.

[00:38:24] Jason Johnston: Yeah, you're getting a lot of head nods. We realize head nods don't really translate into podcasting, but yes. So we're giving you a, we got some amens here, Austin, on that one. Thank you for that.

[00:38:36] Mello: Can I just I put something on the chat, but I feel like everything that. We've all been talking about here since the beginning of the hour. It's really like considering this DEI and justice and belonging in terms of AI education and maybe research. And I feel like this is all really relevant to a symposium that I'm a part of that I'm organizing, that I'm helping organize.

And so I put the link in the chat, but basically it's a symposium with the AAI, and it's called Advancing Diversity in AI Education and Research. It's at Stanford in March, and I invite you all to submit something. It's due like in early January and even if you don't submit something, you just want to check it out you can also just attend for fun and education, obviously.

[00:39:31] Jason Johnston: That sounds great. Thank you for that. And we'll make sure that we get these. Links in this chat and that we get these into our show notes. So if anybody's listening to the show and they would like to either know about that symposium or the submission, then we'll put those into the show notes, as well as these slides with all the quotes and all the people so that make sure everybody gets referenced that way.

All those will be in the show notes. Thank you for that.

We had a final quote that also I wanted to get this right. She had, Christelle had said something about humanizing and I didn't get the full quote. And so I wanted to get it right. And so Olysha connected with her and I was able to get this quote so that we get this right. But she said as part of her session,

"humanizing happens when the instructor takes time to talk about how they got to the work and their personal influences. The intentional sharing creates a culture of genuine interaction. This empowers students to show up as their authentic selves. Share their own narratives and bring their funds of knowledge to the classroom to make learning more relevant and meaningful. And that's by Christelle Dosses.

And I just thought this was a great quote to land on because it just seemed to wrap up so many of the, so many of the themes from today, the themes that we were finding and the thoughts around humanizing online learning and what that looks like with these different guideposts. It just wraps so much in there.

John, other thoughts on that?

[00:41:04] John Nash: I regret that I wasn't in that session and you're right. This this passage really captures what we tried to think about today throughout all the sessions from beginning to end. This idea of intentional sharing genuine interaction and then this empowerment to bring all our authentic selves to the table to the conversation.

I think it's wonderful.

[00:41:29] Mello: I was in that session and yeah this also really resonated with me. Especially actually when I teach a class, the very first session for the very first day, I always talk about funds of knowledge especially I'm with students who maybe they've never heard of that before, or they've never taken a topic about the class that I'm teaching, but I always tell them you're not a blank slate you're coming here with Your funds of knowledge from basically living your life and you're bringing something to the table.

And I think that's really powerful, especially if you're suffering from like some kind of imposter syndrome, right? Just knowing that you're bringing something to the table. It's really powerful. And I don't know. I think I have Mike and Caroline took my class and I talked about funds of knowledge.

I don't know if they want to say something.

[00:42:22] Caroline: I can absolutely 100 percent reiterate that it was very helpful to me so that understanding that I brought a

fund of knowledge to a subject matter that I thought I knew really nothing about, which was educational research my own academic training is in a different field. And Mello said, Oh, no, Caroline, you have funds of knowledge.

And and it turns out that I did. So it's a great way of anticipating people's insecurities and reassuring them that they should be in the room with you.

[00:42:54] Mike Reese: Yeah, I'll just add that Mello, when she first pitched what was, we would typically call a workshop, she described as an experience and it truly was that because of the way she engaged us and set up the activities throughout the event. To really allow all of us to be able to learn from each other based on these different founts of knowledge that we have.

[00:43:21] Sara: Hello, I had a comment that went along with that. This is Sarah Strunkweiler again from Johns Hopkins. In Christelle of Rolando's of my presentation, we were talking about accessibility. So as an instructional Designer, I go to the 1st office hours for a lot of my engineering courses. And so we can talk about the accessibility features in the course.

And we can talk about things like student disability services and student advocacy and speaking up for yourself. So we're empowering students. To show up in class and ask for what they need and I had a student reach out to me earlier this year, this fall, who was an engineering student from another country.

She was new to the U. S. She was ran into some housing insecurity issues and because I had gone to that and we had normalized the conversation about asking for what you need, she reached out to me directly and the faculty and I and our support services work with her. And she told me later. That in her country where she came from, it wouldn't be normal.

It would be culturally unusual to reach out for that support. So she really appreciated us making that available and opening that up that conversation for her. So it supported her as a student and it's supporting her as a working professional in the field as well.

[00:44:43] Jason Johnston: That's great. This has been an amazing conversation. Thank you all for jumping in John This has been a great day of learning from all these different presenters as well as being able to wrap it up with These folks here. Thanks for jumping in. Thanks for being brave jumping into the arena and being willing to Speak up even if it's being recorded and we promise to, to hold all of you with respect and as we put this out just know that it's with our great thanks that you have jumped into this conversation with us.

John, anything else?

[00:45:20] John Nash: Yes, I think I've been struggling to think about how to put a point on all of this. And I'm reminded of Flower Darby invoked a quote from Michelle Miller today, and I thought of another one from Michelle Miller.

If I think about the entire day and everything we've talked about, it goes to something that, it's a, Dr. Miller said in her substack, and we can put a link to it in the notes about this idea of "same side pedagogy" and so much of what we're trying to undo around an us versus them kind of approach to learning and what she was saying in her article was that if we come to a same side pedagogy where we're co designing with learners and we're seeing each other as students, equal partners in the same goal, which is to reach this sort of this learning destination, then things will really come together.

And I think everything today were intentional pieces in this notion of us all being on the same side.

Do you mind if I close it out? Please do.

[00:46:22] Olysha Magruder: Just to go back to my the quote you quoted me on earlier, now I know what has happened, and it was all good. Very good. I want to thank everyone for participating in today's event.

This is our, as we mentioned at the top of this hour that it's our inaugural excellence on online teaching symposium. We plan to have this every year going forward. We will be sending out a link for you all to give us feedback on this event so we can take that into consideration as we plan for next year.

And yeah, I just really happy that we all came together today and it's pretty amazing. This final session you put together cause you. Really, we're able to connect all of the dots, which I feel like we don't get to do that much when we come together for things like this. I appreciate you all, and I appreciate everyone who participated and attended.

Thank you. Thank you all. Thank you

[00:47:14] John Nash: all. Goodbye, everyone.

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