TRANSCRIPT: Michael Cohen on living under Trump

When we talked to former Donald Trump lawyer and confidant Michael Cohen last week, he spoke to us in a way few people can about how he’s dealing — very personally — with life under this regime. You’ll want to see the entire conversation, but what really struck us was his ability to look back on his own experience of misplaced loyalty (he went to prison on campaign finance charges stemming from the Stormy Daniels payoff scandal) to find lessons for us all about living bravely through this moment.

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How do you, given what you're holding… you've held what you've dealt with what you've gone through to fight this administration what you're holding now in terms of all the knowledge and of what's happening and the same way everybody else in this stream and everybody on the stream has not gone to prison the way you have but are experiencing the blizzard of of insanity the way you are. How do you attempt to keep healthy, keep your mind, you know, working?

Like, what do you, at a very practical level, because I think a lot of people are dealing with this just when they open up the news on their phone. What are you trying to do to stay sane, given all of this?

The busier that I keep myself, the less I have time to think. The more time that I have to think, the worse the PTSD gets. Sleeping is a disaster because that's when your mind works overtime. I haven't had a good night's sleep in probably seven years.

Remember, as of yesterday, yesterday was the seven-year anniversary of the raid on my home, the hotel room I was staying at, and my law office by the FBI that sparked this entire chaos.

My journey is not a journey that is anti-Trump. I don't care if the last name was Trump, if it was Jones, if it was Smith, if it was Cohen. It makes no difference to me what the last name of the president is. My concern is for what he is doing. So I tried to take my past affection and my loyalty to him. And I have pushed that way off to the side. I don't think of this as a Trump policy. I think of it as a President Trump policy.

And it may be hard for people to understand, but you know, I was incredibly close with him, 15 years basically sitting shoulder to shoulder with him, protecting him from basically everything,

providing him with advice and guidance that would only benefit him, not harm him. And sometimes, as I'm watching and I can't discern the difference between yesterday and then today.

And I'm wondering, where is the Michael Cohen in this inner circle? Where is the Michael Cohen in this administration? To say to him, before he announces this willy-nilly, self-inflicted tariff policy stupidity, “Mr. President, you can't do this. Let me just give you my prediction on how this is going to end up. You, of course, you're gonna do whatever you want, but let me give you my prediction.”

I did that in 2017 after Steve Miller, the immigration ban, which was really a Muslim ban. And I was in the office shortly thereafter, like a day or so, and he asked me what I thought because they were intending on doing a second round of it. And I said, “Mr. President, can I speak freely?”

He goes, yeah.

I said, “You're f*****g crazy.” Just like that, in his office.

Are you f*****g kidding me? You know I have hundreds of friends who are Muslim, right? Some of whom are my best friends since 1984.

So I said, “You're basically telling them they have to leave the country. How is it possible that you think it's OK to ban an entire religion from the country if it has to do with just Somalia? OK, I understand that. But you can't make it this broad.” And he took my advice to heart. And that's why you didn't see a 2.0.

There is no Michael Cohen there. And sometimes based upon my loyalty that I had in my relationship that I had to him going back to like 2005, I sometimes I almost feel like I want to pick up the phone, call him and say, “What the f**k are you doing? Why? Knock it off. Do something that will give you a legacy that future generations with the last name Trump will be proud of. Not wrecking the global economy. Who gives a s**t if Xi Jinping comes on his f*****g knees begging to you, begging you for forgiveness? How does that benefit Trump? Your legacy, how does that benefit the American people? How does it benefit future generations?”

It does not. And that's the problem. This entire group of enablers — they're only worried about themselves. This is all.

Do you think you could break through to him in some way because of that history of loyalty in spite of everything that's happened? If you made that call, do you think it would go anywhere?

Today?

Today?

No, I don't think he would even take the call. I don't think he would even take the call.

If the two of us were sitting in a room, just us, and we both were able to lower the fences that we have built around us to protect ourselves from each other. Yeah, I'm certain he would have listened. It wouldn't have taken a Bill Ackman or a Jamie Dimon to get him to reverse what he was doing here.

Because somebody breathed into his ear this notion that these tariffs are going to be great for him. It's gonna be a major win. And ultimately, America will be better off for it. It's gonna bring back manufacturing.

No, it's not.

We're never going back to being a manufacturing country. Too expensive in this country to manufacture. Other countries do it better and much cheaper.

And so these are the struggles that I live with. I live with anger. I live with sadness. I live with confusion. I live with yesterday being in solitary confinement with no food, no ability to shower, no change of clothing for 51 days, or my 13 months in Otisville, the unconstitutional remand, when they first took me, because I refused to sign a counterfeit document. Imagine how far Bill Barr's administration, his Department of Justice, went in order to unconstitutionally remand me.

They gave me a document that doesn't exist, that they wrote specifically for me. And when the very first paragraph is a massive First Amendment constitutional violation because I refuse to sign that document, I was handcuffed, shackled, stripped out, put into a paper jumpsuit, put into a freezer for three hours to the point I thought my teeth were gonna fall out of my jaw because I was so cold and my jaw was rattling so hard, I thought my teeth were gonna break. I've never felt cold like that before.

And then to be transported back to Otisville to be put back into solitary until, thank God, a million times for Judge Alvin K. Hellerstein and my attorney, Danya Perry, who filed that habeas corpus, and the judge determined it was retaliatory and a violation of my First Amendment, constitutional rights. A federal court judge had to enjoin the United States government, the DOJ, the Attorney General, from continuing to violate my constitutional rights?

How does something like this even happen? So for me, this is what unfortunately is on the loop that exists in my brain all the time.

It's what I wrote in my whole book. Revenge talks about this. And that's why I think it's important for me to continue to speak up so that it never happens to anyone else ever again.

That's almost the journey that unfortunately my life has taken me into. And I'm willing to accept it.

Well, I know everybody watching this joins me in feeling immensely grateful for your truth-telling voice now and sorry for what you have to go through every day, not just in the limelight, but just in your own life and the quiet of your own life to do that.

We are seeing in real time the opposite, generally in this society, a society with no bravery, no courage, people capitulating left and right. So it almost is like an alien phenomenon when you see someone who's willing to tell the truth, willing to stand up.

As you can see from all the hearts there, a lot of people are very grateful. So thank you. Always appreciate talking to you, and always appreciate your voice, and take care of yourself.

Watch the entire show, with philosopher Olufemi O. Taiwo joining Anand and Michael Cohen, at the link below.

And you’ll also want to see the powerful town hall Cohen hosted last night with Jim Acosta. It’s not to be missed.

A programming note: More Live conversations next week

We’re on the road this week, so we’ll be taking a break from our regularly scheduled Live conversations. We’ll be back next week with some very special guests. On Tuesday, April 22, at 12:30 p.m. Eastern, we’ll talk with the economist Dani Rodrik. And on Wednesday, April 23, at 1:00 p.m. Eastern, we’ll be speaking with the writer, lawyer, and former Secretary of Labor Robert Reich. You won’t want to miss either one, so mark your calendars now!

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