Isocrates, Thucydides, and the Relationship between Rhetoric and Knowledge
Apr 15, 2020
auto_awesome
Explore the relationship between rhetoric and knowledge in Greek political thought, particularly the perspectives of Isocrates and Thucydides. Delve into the different philosophical approaches to politics and knowledge between Plato and Aristotle. Discuss the challenges faced by naturalists and empiricists in supporting morality. Examine the role of rhetoric in conveying values and morality. Explore the contrasting views of Thucydides and Plato on the influence of charismatic individuals in society. Plus, learn about the introduction of a Patreon to sustain the podcast.
Rhetoric can be used to reveal truth and spread philosophical ideas, but Isocrates' high fees contradict his claims of not being a sophist.
Thucydides praises Pericles' exceptional talent in using rhetoric to shape public opinion and lead Athens, while criticizing others who are easily swayed by public opinion.
Plato criticizes rhetoric for inflating desires and argues that knowledge and truth are not easily transmitted through rhetorical arguments.
Deep dives
Isocrates: Rhetoric and the Connection to Truth
Isocrates, a Greek philosopher, emphasizes the importance of rhetoric in Greek political thought. He ran a school of rhetoric and argued that rhetoric is a means to reveal the truth and spread philosophical abstractions. However, there is a tension in his views as he charges high fees for his teachings, contradicting his claims of not being a sophist. Isocrates also highlights the cultural impact of rhetoric, presenting it as a means to induce cities to behave in a way that aligns with truth or knowledge.
Thucydides: Leadership and the Power of Rhetoric
Thucydides, an influential Greek historian, examines the role of rhetoric in leadership. He argues that most orators in Athens are led by public opinion instead of leading the city. However, he praises Pericles, an Athenian leader, for his exceptional talent in using rhetoric to shape public opinion and make the city follow his vision. Despite potential mistakes, Pericles was able to lead Athens, while Thucydides critiques those who followed him as easily swayed by public opinion.
Plato: Rhetoric, Truth, and the Critique of Isocrates
Plato engages in a critical analysis of rhetoric in his dialogues Gorgias and Phaedrus. He argues that rhetoric is not a true craft because its aim is not truth. Plato criticizes Isocrates and his claims that rhetoric can lead to the truth, arguing that rhetoric often appeals to desires and inflates people's desires rather than helping them discover the truth. Plato's skepticism about rhetoric's ability to determine truth stems from his view that knowledge and truth are not easily transmitted through rhetorical arguments.
Tension between democracy and empiricism
The podcast explores the inherent tension between democracy and empiricism in determining values. While democracy aims for egalitarianism and values determined by the people, empiricism recognizes the need for specialized training and expertise. The tension arises from the belief that to properly observe and determine values, one needs training, which challenges the egalitarian element of democracy. This tension can lead to frustration between democratic values and technocratic experts.
The role of philosophy and rhetoric
The podcast discusses the relationship between philosophy and rhetoric in politics. While Plato emphasizes the separation between them, arguing that rhetoric can distort truth and mislead the masses, other perspectives suggest that philosophy can enhance rhetoric by enabling a better understanding of the subjects being communicated. The idea is that some knowledge of truth is necessary even for effective deception. Combining philosophy and rhetoric could potentially lead to a political character who is knowledgeable and persuasive, bridging the gap between philosophy and the masses.
Edmund and Benjamin explore rhetoric, drawing on a variety of Greek thinkers. The Greek theorists' attitudes to rhetoric stem from their attitudes to knowledge. Is the crowd wise? Can rhetoric share wisdom with the crowd? Or is rhetoric where wisdom comes to die?
https://www.patreon.com/politicaltheory101
Get the Snipd podcast app
Unlock the knowledge in podcasts with the podcast player of the future.
AI-powered podcast player
Listen to all your favourite podcasts with AI-powered features
Discover highlights
Listen to the best highlights from the podcasts you love and dive into the full episode
Save any moment
Hear something you like? Tap your headphones to save it with AI-generated key takeaways
Share & Export
Send highlights to Twitter, WhatsApp or export them to Notion, Readwise & more
AI-powered podcast player
Listen to all your favourite podcasts with AI-powered features
Discover highlights
Listen to the best highlights from the podcasts you love and dive into the full episode