Transforming Work with Sophie Wade 128: Mark Ma - RTOs: Research-backed Realities and Recommendations
Mark Ma, a research professor at the University of Pittsburgh, studies social and economic issues including Return To Office (RTO) mandates, AI, and tax evasion. A working parent during the pandemic, Mark describes how personal and community experiences initially generated his interest in researching remote work options and hybrid policies. He shares his discoveries that stock market declines generated RTO mandates but not improved corporate results. Mark discusses the dynamics of executives’ control, power, and distrust affecting work policies. He advocates for workplace flexibility—giving employees and teams choices.
TAKEAWAYS
[02:23] While Mark’s parents advised him to study accounting, he found it fascinating.
[03:01] For his PhD, Mark explores financial analysis, and his tax avoidance research is cited.
[03:45] Passionate about research, Mark pursues academia, also appreciating the flexible lifestyle.
[05:09] Parental challenges during the pandemic fuels Mark’s interest in remote work options.
[05:50] Noticing neighbors’ complaints about returning to the office, Mark attends a conference and hears about working from home research.
[06:41] Mark gets tenure and explores risky research projects that help improve people’s lives.
[08:25] In late 2022, Mark starts collecting data on companies’ return-to-office mandates.
[09:25] Leaders say remote workers aren’t working hard, while employees keep performing.
[11:06] Return-To-Office mandates often happen after a stock price crash—but why?
[12:00] How remote work gets blamed—without evidence—for poor performance.
[14:36] RTO mandates also result from executives’ loss of control and not trusting employees.
[15:40] Companies may also use RTO policies to easily/cheaply lay off employees.
[18:16] Male and powerful CEOs—with higher relative salaries—issue more RTO mandates to assert control.
[21:38] Employee and team choice is recommended combined with intentional office time.
[22:32] Mark needs data from companies offering employee choice to confirm the best approach.
[24:58] Amazon’s shifts to 3-days/wk then 5-days/week RTO has caused employee dissatisfaction and departures.
[25:50] One example of Nvidia’s flexible policy enables it to benefit from Amazon’s rigid one.
[26:59] Mark finds no evidence that RTO mandates help firms’ performance or stock price.
[27:43] Should productivity be measured appropriately and over what time period?
[29:12] States level data shows structured hybrid work reduces depression and suicide risks.
[32:00] Fully remote workers often self-select which fits their lifestyle and social setup.
[32:50] Companies going fully remote need regular off-site engagements to mitigate isolation.
[34:18] New research explores RTO mandates’ affect turnover, especially in finance and tech.
[35:20] Initial findings show higher turnover, especially among women, follows RTO mandates.
[36:48] After RTOs announcements, turnover increases quickly as some people can’t go back to the office.
[39:06] IMMEDIATE ACTION TIP: “First, allow flexibility so employees have choice. Second, promote flexible team leaders to signal that people working from home will not be penalized. Third, for new graduate hires who want to work at the office, ensure mentors are present to support them.
RESOURCES
Is Workplace Flexibility Good for the Environment?
Research on Return To Office Mandates
Mental Health Benefits of Workplace Flexibility
QUOTES
“The more powerful CEOs and the male CEOs are more likely to impose return-to-office mandates.”
“You should allow team choice plus employee choice. That means teams decide when they want to come to office together. And on those in office days, those meetings should be intentional.”
“We clearly do not find any evidence that Return To Office mandates help firms’ performance or stock price.”
“Five-day in-office work is not necessarily good for your mental health.”
“A lot of top executives, when they do not see the employees in the office, they do not trust the employees. They feel they have lost control of the employees.”
"Firms are telling their employees, you can work from home, but you will not be promoted. That's not a good strategy because your good employees will leave."
"By promoting flexible team leaders, you will send a signal to those people who want to stay remote or hybrid that there is a clear career path for them."