Our first four-person discussion on the podcast..! This is a brilliant practical discussion around The Vinci ESM approach , led by Darren, and supported by Pat Bolder from Hornbill, Vinci’s software partner. Darren has a great role as the ESM driver, outside of IT, although he’s from an IT and ITSM background. He also identifies the value of selling and communicating ESM concepts in simple business terms, not using IT or even ‘ESM’ language  Pat is also on hand to provide a vendor perspective – having been doing this in some form since 2005 – as well as ‘navigating hype’. He also provides a variety of useful data on some benefits of ESM working. Not surprisingly this discussion ends up in the bar.