Psychedelics Today PT 627 - Mary Carreon — Censorship, Psychedelic Media & Policy Crosscurrents
Joe and Mary dive into how platform censorship and shifting algorithms have reshaped psychedelic media, why DoubleBlind moved to a “newsletter-first” model, and what that’s revealed about true audience engagement. They reflect on the post-2024 MDMA decision headwinds, state-level policy moves (wins and losses), and how funding, politics, and culture continue to reconfigure the field. They also explore alternatives to alcohol, chronic pain research, reciprocity around iboga/ibogaine, and lessons from PS25 (MAPS’ Psychedelic Science 2025).
Highlights & themes- From platforms to inboxes: Social and search suppression (IG/FB/Google) throttled harm-reduction journalism; DoubleBlind’s pivot to email dramatically improved reach and engagement.
- Post-MDMA decision reality: Investment cooled; Mary frames it as painful but necessary growth—an ecosystem “airing out” rather than a catastrophic pop.
- Policy pulse: Mixed year—some state measures stalled (e.g., MA), others advanced (e.g., NM; ongoing Colorado process). Rescheduling cannabis may add complexity more than clarity.
- Censorship paradox: Suppressing education makes use less safe; independent outlets need community support to keep harm-reduction info visible.
- Chronic pain & long COVID: Emerging overlaps and training efforts (e.g., Psychedelics & Pain communities) point beyond a psychiatry-only frame.
- Alcohol alternatives: Low-dose or occasional psychedelic use can shift habits for some; Mary stresses individual context and support beyond any single substance.
- Reciprocity & iboga: Rising interest (including from right-leaning funders) must include Indigenous consultation and fair benefit-sharing; pace of capitalism vs. community care is an active tension.
- PS25 field notes: Smaller, more manageable vibe than 2023; fewer “gold-rush” expectations; in-person dialogue beats online flame wars.
- DoubleBlind: Newsletter-first publishing; nurturing new writers and reported stories.
- Psychedelics & Pain Association / Clusterbusters: Community-driven models informing care and research (cluster headache protocols history).
- Books & media: Body Autonomy (Synergetic Press anthology); Joanna Kempner’s work on cluster headaches - Psychedelic Outlaws; Lucy Walker’s forthcoming iboga film.
- Compounds to watch: LSD (under-studied relative to MDMA), 2C-B, 5-MeO-DMT (synthetic focus), and broader Shulgin-inspired families.
Mary Carreon: [00:00:00] Okay, I'm gonna send it to my dad because he wants to know. Here
Joe Moore: we go. Yeah, send it over. So, hi everybody. We're live Joe here with Mary Anne, how you doing today?
Mary Carreon: I'm great Joe. How are you?
Joe Moore: Lovely. I actually never asked you how to pronounce your last name does say it right?
Mary Carreon: Yes, you did. You said it perfectly
Joe Moore: lovely.
Joe Moore: Um, great. So it's been a bit, um, we are streaming on LinkedIn, YouTube, Twitch X and Kick, I guess. Yeah. Kick meta. Meta doesn't let me play anymore. Um,
Mary Carreon: you're in forever. Timeout. I got it. I got it. Yeah.
Joe Moore: Yeah. I think they found a post the other day from 2017. They didn't like, I'm like, oh cool. Like neat, you
Mary Carreon: know, you know.
Mary Carreon: Yeah. That happened to me recently, actually. Uh, I had a post taken down from 2018 about, uh, mushroom gummies and yeah, it was taken down and I have strikes on my account now. So
Joe Moore: Do you get the thing where they ask you if you're okay?
Mary Carreon: Yes, with, but like with my searches though, [00:01:00] like if I search something or, or someone's account that has, uh, like mushroom or psychedelic or LSD or something in it, they'll be like, mm-hmm are you okay?
Mary Carreon: And then it recommends getting help. So
Joe Moore: it's like, to be fair, I don't know if I'm okay, but Yeah, you're like, probably not. I don't really want your help. Meta. Yeah.
Mary Carreon: You're like, I actually do need help, but not from you. Thanks. Yeah,
Joe Moore: yeah, yeah.
Mary Carreon: So not from the techno fascists.
Joe Moore: Oh, good lord. Yeah. Uh, we'll go there.
Joe Moore: I'm sure.
Mary Carreon: I know. I just like really dove right there. Sorry. Yeah. All right, so let's,
Joe Moore: um, before we go, let's give people like a bit of, you know, high kicks on, on who is Mary, where you working these days and what are you doing?
Mary Carreon: Yeah, thank you. My name is Mary Carryon and I am forever and first and foremost a journalist.
Mary Carreon: I have been covering, I say the plant legalization spaces for the past decade. It's, it's been nine and a half years. Uh, on January 3rd it will be [00:02:00] 10 years. And I got my start covering cannabis, uh, at OC Weekly. And from there went to High Times, and from there went to Mary Jane, worked for Snoop Dogg. And then, uh, I am now.
Mary Carreon: Double blind. And I have become recently, as of this year, the editor in chief of Double Blind, and that's where I have been currently sinking my teeth into everything. So currently, you know, at this moment I'm an editor and I am basically also a curator. So, and, and somebody who is a, uh, I guess an observer of this space more than anything these days.
Mary Carreon: Um, I'm not really reporting in the same way that I was. Um, but still I am helping many journalists tell stories and, uh, I feel kind of like a story midwife in many ways. Just like helping people produce stories and get the, get the quotes, get the angles that need to be discussed, get the sentences structures right, and, um, uh, helping [00:03:00] sometimes in a visionary kind of, uh, mindset.
Mary Carreon: So yeah, that's what I'm doing these days.
Joe Moore: Oh, there it is. Oh, there you are. Love that. And um, you know, it's important to have, um, editors who kind of really get it from a lot of different angles. I love that we have a lot of alignment on this kind of, and the drug war thing and kind of let's, uh, hopefully start developing systems that are for people.
Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. If you wanna just say that. Yeah, absolutely.
Mary Carreon: Yeah, absolutely.
Joe Moore: So, um, yeah, I almost 10 years in January. That's great. We um, it's so crazy that it's been that long. I think we just turned nine and a half, so we're maybe just a few, a few months shorter than your I love it. Plant medicine reporting career.
Joe Moore: That's great. I love it. Um, yeah, so I think. I think one of the first times we chatted, [00:04:00] um, I think you were doing a piece about two cb Do you, do you have any recollection of doing a piece on two cb?
Mary Carreon: I do, yes. Yes. Wait, I also remember hitting you up during an Instagram live and I was like, are you guys taking any writers?
Mary Carreon: And you guys were like writers, I mean, maybe depending on the writer.
Joe Moore: And I was like, I was like, I dunno how that works.
Mary Carreon: Like me. Yeah.
Joe Moore: Yeah. It was fun. It was fun to work with people like yourself and like get pieces out there. And eventually we had an awesome editor for a bit and that was, that was really cool to be able to like support young startup writers who have a lot of opinions and a lot of things to point out.
Joe Moore: There's so much happening. Um, there was so much fraud in like wave one. Of kind of the psychedelic investment hype. There's still some, but it's lesser. Um, and it's really a fascinating space still. Like changing lives, changing not just lives, right? Like our [00:05:00] perspective towards nearly everything, right?
Joe Moore: Yeah.
Mary Carreon: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's interesting because the space has matured. It's evolved. It's different than it was even, what a, I mean, definitely nine years ago, but even five years ago, even four years ago, even last year, things are different. The landscape is different than it was a year ago.
Mary Carreon: And I, it's, it's interesting to see the politics of things. It's interesting to see who has money these days given like how hard it is just to kind of survive in this space. And it's interesting just to. Bear witness to all of this going down because it really is a once in a lifetime thing. Nothing is gonna look the same as it does now, as it, uh, then it will like in a, in a year from now or anything.
Mary Carreon: So it's really, yeah. It's interesting to take account of all of this
Joe Moore: That's so real. Uh, maybe a little [00:06:00] too real, like it's serious because like with everything that's going on from, um, you know, governance, governments, ai Yes. Drug policy shifts. Drug tech shifts, yes. There's so much interesting movement. Um, yes.
Joe Moore: You, you know, you, you kind of called it out and I think it's really actually worth discussing here since we're both here on the air together, like this idea that the psychedelic market, not idea, the lived experience of the psychedelic market having shifted substantially. And I, I, I think there's a lot of causes.
Joe Moore: But I've never had the opportunity to really chat with you about this kind of like interesting downturn in money flowing into the space. Mm-hmm. Have you thought about it? Like what might the causes be? I'm sure you have.
Mary Carreon: Yeah. Yeah, I have. Yeah. I've thought about it. I mean, it's hard. Well, I don't know. I am really not trying to point fingers and that's not what I'm [00:07:00] trying to do here.
Mary Carreon: But I mean, I think a lot of people were really hopeful that the FDA decision last June, not last June, the previous June, a year ago, 2024, June was going to open the floodgates in terms of funding, in terms of, um. In terms of mostly funding, but also just greater opportunities for the space and, uh, greater legitimacy granted to the psychedelic medicine space.
Mary Carreon: Mm. And for those who might not know what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the, uh, FDA decision to reject, uh, MDMA assisted therapy and, um, that whole, that whole thing that happened, I'm sure if it, you didn't even have to really understand what was going on in order to get wind of that wild situation.
Mary Carreon: Um, so, so maybe, yeah. You probably know what I'm talking about, but I, I do think that that had a great impact on this space. Do I think it was detrimental to this space? [00:08:00] I don't think so. We are in a growth spurt, you know, like we are growing and growing pains happen when you are evolving and changing and learning and figuring out the way forward.
Mary Carreon: So I think it was kind of a natural process for all of this and. If things had gone forward like while, yeah, there probably would be more money, there would be greater opportunity in this space for people wanting to get in and get jobs and make a living and have a life for themselves in this, in this world.
Mary Carreon: I don't know if it was, I don't know if it would necessarily be for the betterment of the space in general for the long term. I think that we do have to go through challenges in order for the best case scenarios to play out in the future, even though that's difficult to say now because so many of us are struggling.
Mary Carreon: So, but I, but I have hope and, and that statement is coming from a place of hope for the future of this space and this culture.
Joe Moore: Yeah. It's, um, I'm with [00:09:00] you. Like we have to see boom bust cycles. We have to see growth and contraction just like natural ecosystems do.
Mary Carreon: Absolutely, absolutely. It has to be that way.
Mary Carreon: And if it's not that way, then ifs, if. It's, it like what forms in place of that is a big bubble or like a, a hot air balloon that's inevitably going to pop, which, like, we are kind of experiencing that. But I think that the, I think that the, um, the, the air letting out of the balloon right now is a much softer experience than it would be if everything was just like a green light all the way forward, if that makes sense.
Mary Carreon: So,
Joe Moore: right. And there's, there's so many factors. Like I'm, I'm thinking about, uh, metas censorship like we were talking about before. Yes. Other big tech censorship, right? Mm-hmm. SEO shifts.
Mary Carreon: Oh. Um, yes, absolutely. Also, uh, there were some pretty major initiatives on the state level that did not pass also this past year that really would've also kind of [00:10:00] helped the landscape a little bit.
Mary Carreon: Um. In terms of creating jobs, in terms of creating opportunities for funding, in terms of having more, uh, like the perception of safer money flow into the space and that, you know, those, those things didn't happen. For instance, the measure for in Massachusetts that didn't go through and just, you know, other things that didn't happen.
Mary Carreon: However, there have been really good things too, in terms of, uh, legalization or various forms of legalization, and that's in New Mexico, so we can't, you know, forget that there, and we also can't forget just the movement happening in Colorado. So there are really great things happening and the, the movement is still moving forward.
Mary Carreon: Everything is still going. It's just a little more difficult than maybe it could have been
Joe Moore: right. Yeah. Amen. Amen. Yes. But also, we
Mary Carreon: can't forget this censorship thing. The censorship thing is a horse shit. Sorry. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to cuss, but it is, [00:11:00] but it is
Joe Moore: calling it out and it's important to say this stuff.
Joe Moore: And you know, folks, if you want to support independent media, please consider supporting Doubleblind and psychedelics today. From a media perspective, absolutely. We wanna wanna put as much out as we can. Yes. The more supporters we have, the more we can help all of you understand what's happening and yes.
Joe Moore: Getting you to stay safer.
Mary Carreon: Yeah, absolutely. And that's the whole difficulty with the censorship is that psychedelics today, and Doubleblind for instance, but also Lucid News, also other, uh, other influencers, other creators in the space, they like. What all of us are doing is putting out information that is ultimately creating a safer user experience.
Mary Carreon: And so with the censorship, we are not able to do so anymore, which creates actually a lot of danger. So. Yeah, it's, it's difficult. The censorship is difficult, and if you are somebody who posts about psychedelics, I know that you know this and I am preaching to the choir.
Joe Moore: Yeah. So can you talk a [00:12:00] little bit about you all at Double Blind made a major shift in the last number of months towards, uh, kind of not necessarily putting everything out there and, and kind of like, um, actually I don't even know the language you use.
Joe Moore: What's the, what's the language you use for the kind of model shift you took on?
Mary Carreon: Yeah, I mean, it's great. It's been a wild shift. It's been a wild shift. Um, what we are currently doing is we went to a newsletter first model, which instead of just posting onto a website for everyone to see, and then, um, you know, hopefully getting SEO hits and also posting on their, then posting those stories onto Instagram and Facebook and Twitter, and hoping to get traffic through social media.
Mary Carreon: Uh, we decided that that was no longer working for us because it wasn't, um, because the censorship is so bad on, on social media, like on Instagram, for instance, and Facebook and Twitter, well, less on Twitter, [00:13:00] but still, nonetheless on social media, the censorship is so bad. And also the censorship exists on Google.
Mary Carreon: When you Google search how to take mushrooms, double blinds is not even on. You know, our guide is not on the first page. It's like, you know, way the heck, way the heck down there. Maybe page 2, 3, 4, 5. I don't know. But, um, the issue, the issue with that, or, or the reason why rather that it's that way is because Google is prioritizing, um, like rehabilitation centers for this information.
Mary Carreon: And also they are prioritizing, uh, medical information. So, like WebMD for instance. And all of these organizations that Google is now prioritizing are u are, are, are, are organizations that see psychedelic use through the lens of addiction or through drug drug abuse. So [00:14:00] again, you know, I don't know, take it for how you want to, I'm not gonna say, I'm not gonna tell anybody like what is the right way to use their substances or whatever.
Mary Carreon: However, it's really important to have the proper harm reduction resources and tools available. Uh, just readily available, not five pages down on a Google search. So anyways, all of that said double blind was our traffic was way down. And it was looking very bleak for a while. Just we were getting kicked off of Instagram.
Mary Carreon: We weren't getting any traffic from social media onto our website, onto our stories. It was a, it was a vicious kind of cycle downward, and it wasn't really working. And there was a moment there where Doubleblind almost shut down as a result of these numbers because there's a, like you, a media company cannot sustain itself on really low page views as a result.
Mary Carreon: So what we [00:15:00] decided to do was go to a newsletter first model, which relies on our email list. And basically we are sending out newsletters three days a week of new original content, mostly, uh, sometimes on Wednesdays we repost an SEO story or something like that. Um, to just to engage our audience and to work with our audience that way, and to like to actually engage our audience.
Mary Carreon: I cannot emphasize that enough because on Instagram and on Facebook, we were only reaching like, I don't know, not that many people, like not that many people at all. And all of that really became obvious as soon as we started sending out to our email list. And as soon as we did that, it was wild. How many, how many views to the website and also how many just open like our open rate and our click through rate were showing how our audience was reacting to our content.
Mary Carreon: In other words. [00:16:00] Social media was not a good, in, like, was not a good indicator of how our content was being received at all because people kind of weren't even receiving it. So going to the newsletter first model proved to be very beneficial for us and our numbers. And also just reaching our freaking audience, which we were barely doing, I guess, on social media, which is, which is wild, you know, for, for a, an account that has a lot of followers, I forget at this exact moment, but we have a ton, double blind, has a ton of followers on, on Instagram.
Mary Carreon: We were, we, we get like 500 likes or, you know, maybe like. I don't know. If you're not looking at likes and you're looking at views, like sometimes we get like 16 K views, which, you know, seems good, but also compared to the amount of followers who follow us, it's like not really that great. And we're never reaching new, like a new audience.
Mary Carreon: We're always reaching the same audience too, [00:17:00] which is interesting because even with our news, with our, with our email list, we are still reaching new people, which is, which says just how much more fluid that space is. Mm-hmm. And it's because it's, because censorship does not at least yet exist in our inboxes.
Mary Carreon: And so therefore email is kind of like the underground, if you will, for this kind of content and this type of material journalism, et cetera. So, so yeah. So it, it, it has been a massive shift. It is required a lot of changes over at double blind. Everything has been very intense and crazy, but it has been absolutely worth it, and it's really exciting that we're still here.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: I'm so grateful that Double-Blind is still around, that we are still able to tell stories and that we are still able to work with writers and nurture writers and nurture the storytelling in this space because it needs to evolve just the same way that the industry and the [00:18:00] culture and everything else is evolving.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Yeah, I think, I think you're spot on like the, when I watch our Instagram account, like, um, I haven't seen the number change from 107 K for two years.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Absolutely. Same. And, um, same.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Yeah. And you know, I think, I think there's certain kinds of content that could do fine. I think, uh, psychedelic attorney, Robert Rush put up a comment, um, in response to Jack Coline's account getting taken down, um, that had some good analysis, um.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Of the situation. Go ahead. You had No,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: no, I'm just like, you know, I can't, when, when journalists are getting kicked off of these, of these platforms for their stories, for their reported stories, that's like, that is a massive red flag. And that's all I have to say. I mean, we could go into more, more details on that, but that is a [00:19:00] huge red flag.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, for sure. The, I, yeah. And like I'm sure he'll get it back. I'm sure that's not for good, but I think he did. Okay, great.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: I think he did. Yeah. Yeah, I think he did.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Yeah. So thank you. Shout out to Jack. Yeah, thanks Jack. Um, and I think, you know, there's, there's no one with that kind of energy out there.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Um, and I'm excited to see what happens over time with him. Yeah. How he'll unfold. Absolutely unfold. Oh yeah. It's like, um. Crushing the beat.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Oh yeah, absolutely. Especially the political, the political beat. Like, there's no, there's few people who are really tackling that specific sector, which is like mm-hmm.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: So exciting for a journalist.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so model shifting, like we all have to like, adapt in new ways. Kyle and I are still trying to figure out what we're gonna do. Like maybe it is newsletter first. Like I, I realized that I hadn't been writing for [00:20:00] years, which is problematic, um, in that like, I have a lot of things to say.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Totally.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: And nobody got to hear it. Um, so I started a substack, which I had complicated feelings about honestly. 'cause it's just another. Rich person's platform that I'm, you know, helping them get Andreessen money or whatever. And, you know, so I'm gonna play lightly there, but I will post here and there. Um, I'm just trying to figure it all out, you know, like I've put up a couple articles like this GLP one and Mushrooms article.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: I saw that. I saw that. Really? And honestly, that's a really, like, it's so weird, but I don't, like, it's such a weird little thing that's happening in the space. I wonder, yeah, I wonder, I wonder how that is going to evolve. It's um, you know, a lot of people, I, I briefly kind of wrote about, um, psychedelics and the GLP, is that what it is?
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: GLP one.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: GLP one. Say Ozempic. Yeah, just, yeah, Ozempic. Yeah, exactly.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Yeah, exactly. I wrote about [00:21:00] that briefly last year and there were a bunch of people like obviously horrified, which it is kind of horrifying, but also there's a bunch of people who believe that it is extremely cutting edge, which it also is.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: So it's really interesting, really fascinating.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, I remember Bernie Sanders saying like, if this drug gets as much traction as it needs to, it will bankrupt Medicaid. I guess that's not really a problem anymore. Um, but, but, uh, but so like naming it real quick, like it changed the way we had to digest things, therefore, like mushrooms get digested differently and, um, some people don't respond in the expected ways.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: And then there was some follow up, oh, we, in the regulated model, we just do lemon tech. And then I was like, is that legal in the regulated model? And I, I don't know the answer still. Mm-hmm. Like there was a couple things, you know, if users know to do it, you know, I don't, I don't totally understand the regulated model's so strange in Oregon, Colorado, that like, we really need a couple lawyers opinions.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Right. I think
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: yes, of course
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: the lawyers just gave it a [00:22:00] thumbs up. They didn't even comment on the post, which is,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->laughs: thanks guys. Um,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: but you know,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->laughs: yeah. You're like, thank you.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Thanks and diversity of opinions. So yeah, there's that. And like GLP ones are so interesting in that they're, one friend reached out and said she's using it in a microdose format for chronic neuroinflammation, which I had never heard of before.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Whoa. And um, I think, you know, articles like that, my intent was to just say, Hey, researchers yet another thing to look at. Like, there's no end to what we need to be looking at. Abso
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. You know, reporting on this space actually taught me that there's so much just in general that isn't being researched, whether that's in this space, but also beyond and how, um, yeah, just how behind, actually, maybe not, maybe behind isn't the right word, but it kind of feels from my novice and from my novice place in the, in the world and [00:23:00] understanding research, it's.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Hard for me to see it as anything, but being behind in the research that we all really need, that's really going to benefit humanity. But also, you know, I get that it's because of funding and politics and whatever, whatever, you know, we can go on for days on all of that.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: What's the real reason? What's the real reason?
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Well, drug war.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Yeah. Well, yeah, definitely the drug war. Nixon. Yeah. Yes, yes, definitely the drug war. Yeah. I mean, and just the fact that even all of the drug research that happens is, again, through the lens of addiction and drug abuse, so
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: mm-hmm. Hard to right. Yeah. Um, like ni a is obviously really ridiculous and, and the way they approach this stuff, and Carl Hart illustrates that well, and,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: oh man, yes, he does.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Like, I think Fadiman's lab in Palo Alto got shut down, like 67, 66 or 67, and like that's, you know, that was one of the later ones,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: right? And,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: and like,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: and here we are.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: The amount of suffering that could have been alleviated if we [00:24:00] had not done this is. Incalculable. Um, yes. Yes. Yeah.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: I mean the, yeah, it's hard to say exactly how specifically it would be different, but it's difficult to also not think that the fentanyl crisis and the opioid addiction rate and situation that is currently like plaguing the, the world, but particularly the United States, it's hard to think that it wouldn't be, like, it wouldn't be a different scenario altogether.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Right, right. Absolutely. Um, and it's, um, it's interesting to speculate about, right? Like Yeah. Yes. Where would we be? And
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: I know, I know, I know, I know it is speculation. Absolutely. But it's like hard, as I said, it's hard not to think that things would be different.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Right. Right. Um, I like, there's two kind of quotes, like, um, not, this one's not really a quote.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Like, we haven't really had a [00:25:00] blockbuster psychiatric med since Prozac, and I think that was in the eighties or early nineties, which is terrifying. And then, um, I think this guy's name is James Hillman. He is kinda like a Jungian, um, educator and I think the title of one of his books is, we're a hundred Years Into Psychotherapy and the World is Still a Mess.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: And I think like those two things are like, okay, so two different very white people approaches didn't go very far. Yes. Um, yes and
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->laughs: mm-hmm.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Thankfully, I think a lot of people are seeing that. Mm-hmm. Um, finally and kind of putting energy into different ways. Um,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: yeah. Absolutely. I think, yeah, I mean, we need to be exploring the other options at this point because what is currently happening isn't working on many fronts, but including in terms of mental health especially.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: So mm-hmm. We gotta get going. Right? We [00:26:00] gotta get moving. Geez.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Have you all, have you all seen much of the information around chronic pain treatments? Like I'm, I'm a founding board member with the Psychedelics and Pain Association, which has a really fun project. Oh, that's interesting.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Um, I've seen some of the studies around that and it's endlessly fascinating for obvious, for obvious reasons.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: I, um, we have a writer who's been working for a long time on a story, uh, about the chronic pain that has since. Become an issue for this, for her, for the writer. Mm-hmm. Um, since she had COVID. Mm-hmm. Since, since she is just like, COVID was the onset basically of this chronic pain. And, um, there she attended a psychedelics in pain, chronic pain conference and, uh, that has pretty much like, changed her world.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Um, well, in terms of just the information that's out there, not necessarily that she's painless, but it's just, you know, offering a, a brand new, a brand new road, a brand new path that is giving her, [00:27:00] um, relief on days when the pain is, uh, substantial.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->laughs: Yeah.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: So that's interesting. And a lot of people are experiencing that as well.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. So there's, there's a really cool set of overlap between the COVID researchers, long COVID researchers and the chronic pain people. 'cause there is Yes. This new science of pain that's yes. Our group, PPA put out like a really robust kind of training, um, for clinicians and researchers and even patients to get more educated.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: And we're, we're getting, um, kind of boostered by cluster busters and we're kind of leveraging a lot of what they've done.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Wait, what is a cluster buster?
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Oh gosh. Um, so they're a 5 0 1 C3. Okay. Started with Bob Wald. Okay. Bob Wald is a cluster headache survivor. Oh, oh, oh,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: okay. Got it. Got it. Yes. So they're
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: the charity that, um, has been really championing, um, cluster headache research because they found a protocol [00:28:00] with mushrooms.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Yes, yes, yes. To eliminate. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, this really great, I
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: love that.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: This really great book was written by a Rutgers, um, I think medical sociologist or anthropologist psychedelic. Love
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->laughs: that.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Joanna Kempner. Cool. Um, and it kind of talks about the whole, um, cluster busters saga, and it was, it was pretty cool.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Nice. So they've been at it for about as long as maps. Um, oh wow. Maybe a little earlier. Maybe a little later.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: I love that. Cool. I mean, yeah, that's really great. That's really great.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: So we're copying their playbook in a lot of ways and Cool. We about to be our own 5 0 1 C3 and, um, nice. And that should be really fun.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: And, uh, the next conference is coming up at the end of next month if people wanna check that out. Psychedelic. Nice.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Nice, nice, nice. Cool.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Yeah, so that, like, how I leaned into that was not only did I get a lot of help from chronic pain with psychedelics and going to Phish shows and whatever, um, you know, I, and overuse for sure helped me somehow.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: [00:29:00] Um, God bless. Yeah. But I, I like it because it breaks us out of the psychiatry only frame for psychedelics. Mm. And starts to make space for other categories. Mm-hmm. Is one of the bigger reasons I like it.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes. Which, like, we need to be, we need to, we, no one else is gonna do it for us. We like the people in the space who are finding new uses for these substances need to be creating those, those pathways and those new niches for people to then begin studying, et cetera, and exploring and yeah.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Making, making a proper avenue for,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: right, right. And, you know, um, I don't know that this is a Maha thing, so No, I'm going there, I guess, but like, how do we kind of face squarely America and the world's drinking problems? Not [00:30:00] knowing what we know now about alcohol, you know what I mean? And then like, what are the alternatives?
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: You know, some, some writers out there on substack are very firm that everybody needs to not do any substance. And like all psychedelics are super bad and drugs are evil, you know, famous sub stackers that I won't name. But you know, like what is the alternative? Like, I, like we have to have something beyond alcohol.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: And I think you've found some cannabis helpful for that.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Yeah, I, you know, it's, it's interesting because it's, there are, there's definitely an argument to be made for the power of these substances in helping, I don't wanna, I don't wanna say curb, but definitely reduce the symptoms of, uh, wanting to use or to drink or to consume a specific substance.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: There's obviously there is an argument to be made. There are, there is ano another camp of people who are kind [00:31:00] of in the, in the, in the, in the realm of using a drug to get off of a drug isn't how you do it. However, and, and I do, it depends on the individual. It depends on the individual and the, and how that person is engaging with their own addiction.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: I think for whether or not the substances work, like whether psychedelics work to help somebody kind of get off of alcohol or get off of cocaine or stop using opioids or, you know, et cetera. Mm-hmm. However, I think like, when the situation is so dire, we need to be trying everything. And if that means, like, if, like, you know, if you look at the studies for like smoking cessation or alcohol use, mushrooms do help, psilocybin does help with that.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Mm-hmm. But, you know, there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of things that also need to happen. There's a lot of things that also need to happen in order for those, uh, that relief to maintain and to stick and to, uh, really guide [00:32:00] somebody off of those substances. Mm-hmm. It's not just the substance itself.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Right. So I'm, I'm explicitly talking like recreational alternatives, right. Like how do I Yeah. On per minute, like, am Anitas becoming helpful? Yeah, yeah. Are helpful and Yeah. Yeah. I think like even, um, normal. What we might call like normal American alcohol use. Like Yeah. That's still like, quite carcinogenic and like, um, absolutely.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: We're kind of trying to spend less as a country on cancer treatments, which I hope is true. Then how do we, how do we develop things that are, you know, not just abstinence only programs, which we know for sure aren't great.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Yeah. They don't work. Yeah. I don't, it's, it's difficult. Mm-hmm. It's difficult to say.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: I mean mm-hmm. I don't know. Obviously I, I, well, maybe it's not obvious at all for people who don't know me, but, you know, I exist in a, I exist in, in a world where recreational use is like, it's like hard to define what recreational use is because if we are using this, if we are using mushrooms or LSD even, or MDMA, [00:33:00] you know, there are so many, there's a lot of the therapy that can happen through the use of these substances, even if we're not doing it, you know, with a blindfold on or whatever and yeah, I think like.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: There is a decent swap that can happen if you, if you are somebody who doesn't wanna be, you know, having like three beers a night, or if you are somebody who's like, you know, maybe not trying to have like a bottle of wine at a night or something like that, you know, because like Americans drink a lot and a lot of the way that we drink is, um, you know, like we don't see it as alcoholism.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Even though it could be, it could be that's like a difficult
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: potentially subclinical, but right there.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Um, yeah. Yeah. It's like, you know, it's, um, we don't see it as that because everybody, a lot of people, not everybody, but a lot of people drink like that, if that makes sense. If you know mm-hmm. If you, if you get what I'm, if you get what I'm saying.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: So, you know, I do think that there's a lot of benefit that, I don't [00:34:00] know, having, like a, having a mushroom, having a mushroom experience can really help. Or sometimes even like low dose, low doses of mushrooms can also really help with, like, with the. Desire to reach for a drink. Yeah, totally. And, and AMS as well.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: I know that that's also helping people a lot too. And again, outside of the clinical framework.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Yeah. I'm, a lot of people project on me that I'm just like constantly doing everything all the time and I'm, I'm the most sober I've been since high school. You know, like it's bonkers that like Yeah. Um, and you know, probably the healthiest event since high school too.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Yeah. But it's fa it's fascinating that like, you know, psychedelics kind of helped get here and even if it was like For sure something that didn't look like therapy. Yeah,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I, I think, I think most of us here in this space are getting projected on as to like, you know, being like what Normies would consider druggies or something, or that we are just like, you know, high all the time.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Um, [00:35:00] I know that that is definitely something that I face regularly, like out in the world. Um, but, you know, I would also, I would also argue that. Uh, like mushrooms have completely altered my approach to health, my approach to mental health, and not even having to consume that, you know, that substance in order or that, you know, that fun fungi, in order for me to like tap into taking care of my mental health or approaching better, uh, food options, et cetera.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: It's kind of like what these, it's like how the mushrooms continue to help you even after you have taken them. Like the messages still keep coming through if you work with them in that capacity. Right. And yeah, and also same with, same with LSD too. LSD has also kind my experiences with that have also guided me towards a healthier path as well.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: I, I understand that maybe for some people it's not that way, but, um, for me that substance is a medicine as well, [00:36:00] or it can be.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, so. What are, what are some things popping up these days about like US drug policy that's like getting exciting for you? Like, are you feeling feeling like a looming optimism about a, a major shift?
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Are you kind of like cautiously optimistic with some of the weird kind of mandatory minimum stuff that's coming up or?
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I know that there was a huge, a, a pretty huge shift over at the DEA and I wish I remembered, I wish I remembered his name. The new guy who's now, I believe the head of the DEA, I don't know enough information about it to really feel a way.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: However, I don't think that he's necessarily going to be serving us as a community here, uh, in the psychedelic space. I, you know, I just don't think that that's something that we can ever depend on with the DEA. Uh, I also don't think that [00:37:00] the DEA is necessarily going to be. All that helpful to cannabis, like the cannabis space either.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Um, I know that, that Trump keeps kind of discussing or, or dangling a carrot around the rescheduling of cannabis. Um, for, he's been, he's been, but he's doing it a lot more now. He's been talking about it more recently. Uh, he says like, in the next like couple weeks that he's going to have some kind of decision around that, allegedly.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: But we will see also, I'm not sure that it's going to necessarily help anybody if we reschedule two. Uh, what from schedule one to schedule th two, three, schedule three.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Either way it's like not that useful. Right. Exactly.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It's, um, just going to probably cause a lot more red tape and a lot of confusion for the state rec markets.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: So it's like something that we, it's like only ridden with unintentional, unintentional consequences. Unintended consequences. Mm-hmm. Because no one knows how it's really going to [00:38:00] impact anything, um, if, if at all. But I don't know. It's hard, it's hard to imagine that there won't be any, uh, like more complex regulatory issues for business owners and also probably consumers as well.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Hmm. Yeah. This guy's name's Terry Cole.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Oh, the new DEA guy.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Yeah. Um, I don't know much about him. Terry. Yeah. Terry, I would love to chat.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Yeah. Terry, let's talk. I'm sure your people
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: are watching. Yeah. So like, just let him know. We wanna chat. Yeah. We'll come to DC and chat it out. Um, yeah. It's, um, but yeah, I, Carl Hart's solution to me makes like almost most of the sense in the world to just end the scheduling system Absolutely.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: And start building some sort of infrastructure to keep people safe. That's clearly not what we have today.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: No. But building an infrastructure around the health and wellness and uh, safety of [00:39:00] people is the exact opposite system that we have currently right now. Because also the scheduling system has a lot to do with the incarceration in the United States and the criminal just, or the criminal system.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: So, so yeah, like we can't disentangle the two really.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: It just started, um, I feel negligent on this. Uh, synergetic press put out a book like a year or two ago called Body Autonomy. Mm-hmm. Um, did that one come across your desk at all? Mm-hmm. No. I wish basically contributed. Oh, nice. A number of people. So it's both like, um.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Drug policy commentary and then like sex work commentary. Oh, nice. And it was like high level, like love that really, really incredible love that detailed science based conversations, which is not what we have around this. Like, that doesn't make me feel good. So you should go to jail kind of stuff. Or like, I'm gonna humiliate you for real though.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Ticket. Yeah,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh God. Uh, when you think about it like that, it just really also shows [00:40:00] just the uh, um, the level at which religion has also kind of fundamentally infused itself into the scheduling system, but also our laws, you know, like what you just said, this like, shame-based, I'm going to embarrass you and make you into a criminal when you know actually you are a law for the most part, a law abiding citizen, with the exception of this one thing that you're doing for.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: A, your survival and or your, like, your feeling good, wanting to feel good addressing pain. Um, there's a large, uh, like noise coming out of the front yard of my house right now. Hold on. Just a, it doesn't sound too bad. It doesn't sound too bad. Okay. Okay, good. Not at all. Not at all. Okay. Yeah, I had
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: people working on my roof all day and somehow it worked out.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Oh, good. Um, yeah. Um, yeah, it's, it's fascinating and I, I've been coming around like, I, I identify as politically confused, [00:41:00] um, and I feel like it's the most honest way I can be. Um,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: I am also politically confused these days, impossible to align with any, uh, party or group currently in existence at this exact juncture in American history.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: I can't find any that I want to throw my dice in with. Nah. This idea of like fucking way being. Like what is the most humane way to do government as a way it's been put to me recently. And that's interesting. So it comes down to like coercion, are we caring for people, things like that. And um, I don't think we're doing it in a super humane way right now.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Um, we, yeah, I am pretty sure that even if there was, I mean, I think that even if we looked at the data, the data would support that we are not doing it in a humane way.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: So
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: unfortunately, and
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: you know, this whole tech thing, like the tech oligarch thing, you kind of dropped at the beginning and I think it's worth bringing that back because we're, we're on all [00:42:00] these tech platforms.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Like that's kind of like how we're transmitting it to people who are participating in these other platforms and like, you know, it's not all meta. I did turn on my personal Facebook, so everybody's watching it there. I hope. Um, see if that count gets,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: um,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: but you know, this idea that a certain number of private corporations kind of control.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: A huge portion of rhetoric. Um, and you know, I think we probably got Whiffs of this when Bezos bought Washington Post and then Yes. You know, Musk with X and like yes. You know, is this kind of a bunch of people who don't necessarily care about this topic and the way we do, and they're like in larger topics too about humane government and like, you know, moving things in good directions.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Um, I don't know, thoughts on that rift there as it relates to anything you, wherever you wanna go. Yeah.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Yeah. I mean, I don't think that they are looking at, I don't think that they are looking [00:43:00] at it the way that we are. I don't think that they can see it from their vantage point. Um, I think that like, in the, in a similar way that so many CEOs who run businesses have no fucking clue about what's actually happening in their businesses and the actual workers and, and employees of their businesses can tell them in more detail.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Far more detail about what's actually happening on the, on the floor of their own business. Uh, I think that it is something like that. However, that's not to say that, you know, these, these CEOs who employ people who build the A algorithm are obviously guided to create the limitations on us as people who speak about drugs, et cetera, and are creating a algorithm that ultimately is looking at things in a very blanket way in terms of, uh, like we're probably seen on the same level as like drug dealers, if that makes sense.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Which is obviously a much, you know, there's, [00:44:00] it's a very different thing. Um, so, you know, there's like these CEOs are giving directions to their employees to ultimately create systems that harm. Information flow and inform and, and like the information health of, of platforms and of just people in general.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: So it's hard to say because there's nuance there, obviously, but I would bet you that someone like Elon Musk doesn't really have a full grasp as to the, the nuances and details of what's even happening within, on the ground floor of his businesses. Because that's like, not how CEOs in America run, run, and operate.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: They're stupid companies. So, so yeah. And I feel like that, like, that's across the board, like that's across the board. That's how I, that's probably how Zuck is operating with Meta and Facebook, et cetera. And yeah, just likewise and across, across the whole, [00:45:00] across the whole spectrum.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think, um, a thing.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Then as the people like, we need to keep looking at how can we keep each other informed. And that's kind of circling back to drug journalism like we do and like, um, other, other sorts of journalism that doesn't really get the press it deserves. Right. And I've been getting far more content that I find more valuable off of tragically back on Zucks platform like IG is getting me so much interesting content from around the world that no major outlet's covering.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: That's so interesting. Like what? Like what would you say?
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Oh, um, uh, certain, um, violent situations overseas. Oh, oh, got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, um, you know, that America's paying for, so like, you know, I just don't love that I don't have a good, you know, journalistic source I can [00:46:00] point to, to say, hey, like right.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: These writers with names, with addresses, like, and offices here. Yes. You know, they did the work and they're held, you know, they're ethical journalists, so yes. You can trust them. Right. You know what I mean? Yes,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, all of this makes everything so much harder for determining, like, the censorship specifically makes it so much harder for the people to determine like, what's real, what's not.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Because, because of exactly what you just said. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, we are, we are basically what that means, like what is required of the people and people who are consuming information is becoming a smart consumer and being able to determine what's real, what's not. How can we trust this individual?
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: How can we not, which isn't analysis process that all of us need to be sharpening every single day, especially with the advent of AI and, uh, how quickly this, this type of content is coming at all of us. Like, especially if you're on TikTok, which many of us are, you know, like information comes flying at you 3000 miles an hour, and it's sometimes [00:47:00] really difficult to determine what's real, what's not, because AI is.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: AI is not where it's going to be, and it still is in its nascent phase. However, it's still pretty fucking good and it's still very confusing on there. So, so again, like the media literacy of the people needs to be sharpened every single day. We cannot be on there, we cannot be on the internet existing.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: That everything that we are seeing is real. Whether that's about, you know, these, um, the violence overseas, uh, happening at the hands of the United States, whether that is, uh, even drug information like, you know, et cetera, all of all of it. Or just like news about something happening at Yellowstone National Park or something that is happening in the, uh, at like.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Um, like potential riots also happening at protests in downtown la, et cetera. Like all, all of it, we need to be so careful. And I think what that also, like, one way that [00:48:00] we can adjust and begin to develop our media literacy skills is talking to people maybe who are there, reaching out to people who are saying that they were there and asking them questions, and also sussing that out.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: You know, obviously we can't do that for all situations, but definitely some of them.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Yeah, absolutely. Like,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: um, a quick pivot. Mm-hmm. Were you at PS 25?
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Yes, I was. What did I think? Uh, you know, I, I was running around like crazy at this one. I felt like I didn't even have a second to breathe and I feel like I didn't even have a second to really see anybody. I was like, worry. I was jumping from one stage to the next.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: However, I would say, uh, one of, one of the things that I have said and how I felt about it was that I felt that this, this event was smaller than it was two years ago. And I preferred that I preferred the reduction in size just because it was, uh, less over, less overwhelming [00:49:00] in an, in an already very overwhelming event.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Um, but I thought that from the panels that I did see that everyone did a really great job. I thought that maps, you know, it's impressive that maps can put on an event like that. Um, I also was very cognizant that the suits were there in full effect and, uh, you know, but that's not unusual. That's how it was last time as well.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: And, um, I felt that there was
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: a, uh, like the, the, the level of excitement and the level of like opportunity and pro, like the prosperous. The like, prospect of prosperity coming down the pipeline like tomorrow, you know, kind of vibe was different than last time. Mm-hmm. Which that was very present at the one, two years ago, uh, which was the last PS psychedelic science.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Yeah. Um, anyways. Yeah. But it was, you know, it was really nice to see everybody. [00:50:00] I feel like in-person events is a great way for everybody in the psychedelic space to be interacting with each other instead of like keyboard warrioring against each other, you know, uh, over the computer and over the internet.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: I think that, um, yeah, uh, being in person is better than being fighting each other over the internet, so, yeah.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. People seem to be a little bit more civil in person.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Exactly. Exactly. Mm-hmm. And I think that that is something that we all need to be considering more often, and also inviting people from across the aisle to your events and creating peace, because in person it's a little different than it is.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: When you have the opportunity to, uh, yeah, like keyboard attack someone over the internet, it's like, yeah. It's just so silly. So silly. We look like fools. Like we look like absolute idiots doing that. And you know what? I cannot sit here and say that I haven't looked like an idiot. So, you know, it's like I'm not, I'm not talking from like a high horse over here, but, but you know, it's like, it's [00:51:00] better when it's in person.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: I feel like there's like more civil engagements that we can all have.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: It's practice, you know? Yeah. We're learning. Yeah. We are. We should be learning, including us, and yes, of course. Um, I, I play a subtler game these days and, uh, you know, I, I, I, it's better when we all look a lot better in my opinion, because yes, we can inform policy decisions, we can be the ones helping inform really important things about how these things should get implemented and absolutely right.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Like,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: absolutely. Yeah, it does. It does. Nobody, any service, especially these medicines, especially these sacraments, especially these plants, these molecules, et cetera, if we are all sitting here fighting each other and like calling each other names and trying to dunk on one another, when like in reality, we are also all kind of pushing for the same thing more or less.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Mm-hmm. So a thing that [00:52:00] I, it's a, it's kind of a, I, I had a great time at PS 25. I have no, no real complaints. I just wish I had more time. Yeah, same. Um, same. Yeah. Our booth was so busy. It was so fun. Just good. And it was like, good. I, I know. It was really good. I'm trying to say it out loud. I get to talk at the conference before Rick did.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->laughs: Oh, oh,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: the morning show they put us on at like seven 30 in the morning or something crazy. Oh my god. It was early. I dunno if it was seven 30.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: That's so early. That's so early.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Yeah, right. Like that's crazy. I got zero nightlife in That's okay. Um, I was not, I was there for work. Yeah,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: yeah. I was
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: jealous. I didn't party, but you know, whatever.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Yeah, yeah.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: I did not party this time really in the same way that I did at PS 20. Was it 2023?
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: 23, yeah. 23. I only stay up till 11 one night in 23. Nice.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Okay. Um, okay.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: So I behaved, I have a pattern of behaving. 'cause I like That's good. I'm so bent outta shape inside going into these things. I'm like, I know, I know.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: And, and I'm like, oh, all [00:53:00] my friends are gonna be there. It's gonna be great. And then it's like, yeah. It's mostly friends and only a little bit of stress. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: yeah. I had a, I had a great time. It was really good seeing everybody again. Like you, I wish that I had more time with people. Like there are people that I like didn't even see who are my friends,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: so, which Yeah.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Which is sad. That's like a subtext in, in like the notes coming away from 25. Is that the, um, American Right, if we wanna call it that, is very interested in this stuff. Oh yeah. Like the Texas establishment. Oh yeah. Um, the Texas contingent, right? They're deep. They're real deep. Mm-hmm. I have, um,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: let's talk about that more.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Yeah. So
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: it's optimistic in, in some sense that psychedelic science is getting funded more. By states. 'cause the feds aren't stepping up. Right. I love that. Right. Yeah. Like, Hey feds, look what we can do. And you can't somehow, and [00:54:00] then, um, we'll see if state rights stays around for a while longer, maybe, maybe not.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: And then the other part is like, is there a slippery slope given the rhetoric around addiction and the rise in interest in iboga for compulsory addiction treatment with psychedelics or, or compulsory mental health treatments with psychedelics because of the recent, it's illegal to be a person without housing.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Um, and you're gonna get put in treatment. Mm. Like, that's now a thing. So like, I don't know, I don't think forced treatment's good at all. I, and I don't think like, um, like the data is something like 15% effective, maybe less. Right. Right. It's not a good use of money. I don't know. We're, let's, I. You can go there if you want, and riff on that, or if you wanna talk about like, Texas, um, Arizona more generally.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Yeah. I mean, I will just say this, I also don't really believe that forced treatment is like good, you [00:55:00] know, data
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: says it's bad.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Yeah. Yeah. I also, yeah, I mean, it's like, I don't know. Yeah, that's, it's complex. It's a complex issue. I also don't think it's good, but I also do think that we need a much better framework and foundation for like, if people do want the help, helping them get it.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Much more easily and in a way that's going to be beneficial for them. Um, and I don't think that that system or that pathway currently exists as we saw in, uh, with, with, um, measure 1 0 9 and the failure of measure 1 0 9 or, or was it Measure 1 0 10, 1 10, measure one 10 in Oregon.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: But did you see the response yesterday or two days ago?
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: No, I didn't. No, I didn't. I'll I'll send it to you later. Okay. So the university did the research, um, Portland State University did the research Yes. And said, Hey, look, there was actually 20 other things that were higher priority. Like that actually influenced this increase in overdoses, not our law.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Right.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Yes. It was really COVID for Okay. [00:56:00] Like for, yeah. Right. Absolutely. Also, there was not a. Like there was not a framework in place that allowed people to get off the street should they want to, or you know, like, like you just can't really have a, all drugs are legal, or small amounts of drugs are legal without also offering or creating a structure for people to get help.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: That, that's, you can't do one without the other. Unfortunately. That's just like a, that's faulty from the start. So that's all I'll really say about that. And I don't think that that had fully been implemented yet, even though it was something that wasn't ideal for the, um, for the, for the measure. And I believe it was measure one 10, not measure 1 0 9, to be clear.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Measure one 10. Um, yes, but confirmed one 10 confirmed one 10, yes. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, uh, that's, you know, that's kind of what I'll say. That's what I'll, that's where I'll leave that portion. Mm-hmm. You know? Uh, but yeah, forced treatment. I don't know. [00:57:00] We can't be forcing, forcing people to do stuff like that.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: I don't know. It's not gonna, it's, yeah, it doesn't seem
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: very humane.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Yeah. No. And it also probably isn't gonna work, so,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: right. Like, if we're being conservative with money, like, I like tote, like to put on Republican boots once in a while and say like, what does this feel like? And then say like, okay, if we're trying to spend money smartly, like where do we actually get where we want to be?
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: And then sometimes I put on my cross and I'm like, okay, if I'm trying to be Christian, like where is the most, like, what is the most Christian behavior here in terms of like, what would the, you know, buddy Jesus want to do? And I'm just like, okay, cool. Like, that doesn't seem right. Like those things don't seem to align.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: And when we can find like compassionate and efficient things, like isn't that the path? Um,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: compassionate and t. Yeah, even, I don't know, I don't know if it looks lefty these days, but Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah, I know what you mean. I know what you mean. Yeah. [00:58:00] Yeah. Um, yeah, it's complicated. It's complicated, you know, but going back, kind of, kind of pivoting and going back to what you were talking about in regards to the subtext, some of the subtext of like, you know, where psychedelic medicine is currently getting its most funding.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: You know, I do believe that that was an undercurrent at psychedelic science. It was the, the iboga conversation. And there's, there's a lot, there's a lot happening with the Iboga conversation and the Iboga conversation and, um, I am really trying to be open to listening to everyone's messages that are currently involved in.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: That rise of that medicine right now? Um, obviously, yeah, we will see, we'll see how it goes. There's obviously a lot of people who believe that this is not the right move, uh, just because there's been no discussions with, uh, the Wii people of West Africa and, you know, because of [00:59:00] that, like we are not talking to the indigenous people about how we are using their medicine, um, or medicine that does like that comes from, that comes from Africa.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Um, also with that, I know that there is a massive just devastating opioid crisis here that we need to do something about and drug crisis that we need to be helping with. And this medicine is something that can really, really, really help. Um, I find it absolutely fascinating that the right is the most interested party in moving all of this forward, like psychedelic medicine forward.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: And I, I currently have my popcorn and I am watching and I am eating it, and I am going to witness whatever goes down. Um, but I'm, I, I hope that, uh, things are moving in a way that is going to be beneficial for the people and also not completely leave behind the indigenous communities where this medicine comes from.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: [01:00:00] Mm-hmm.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: We'll see how it goes. Yeah. We'll see how it goes. We'll see how it goes. It
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: would be lovely if we can figure it out. Um, I know, and I think, uh, Lucy Walker has a film coming out on Iboga. Mm. I got to see it at Aspen, um, symposium last summer, and it was really good. Mm. So I'm sure it'll be cut different, but it's so good and it tells that story.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Okay. Um, in a helpful way. I'm gonna, I, yeah. I always say I'm gonna do this. I'm like, if I have space, maybe I'll be able to email her and see if we can screen it in Colorado. But it's like a brilliant film. Yeah. Cool. This whole reciprocity conversation is interesting and challenging. And so challenging being one of the few countries that did not sign onto the Nagoya protocol.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Absolutely. We're not legally bound, you know, some countries are
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: I know. Yes, yes, yes. So
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: we're, you know, how do we do that? How do we do that skillfully? We still haven't done it with, um, first Nations folks around their [01:01:00] substances. Um, I think mushrooms are a little flexible and account of them being global, um, from Africa to Ireland and beyond.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: And, but you know, that's, we still want to give a nod to the people in Mexico for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah, it's, I had some fun commentary there that I would love to flesh out someday. Uh, but yeah, it's not for today.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, there's, yeah, there's obviously, there's obviously a lot with the conversation of reciprocity here and, um, I know, I, I don't know.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: I, I, what I do know is that we need to be listening to the indigenous people, not just listening to them second, like secondhand or listening to them, uh, once we have moved something forward, like actually consulting with them as the process goes. And that, you know, the way that both parties move, indigenous folks and, uh, western folks move, uh, are at inherently different paces.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: And, [01:02:00] um, I just hope, and I wish, and I, I hope, I just hope that, uh, Western what, like the Western party, the western folks who are diving into these medicines. Slow the fuck down and listen and just are able to at least make one right move. Just one, just like you. Like it's, doesn't have to be this, it doesn't have to be that hard.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Although the pace of capitalism usually propels, uh, the western folks at, at a much quicker rate than, um, yeah. Then it's like at, at a dangerous rate, I believe through the eyes of indigenous folks. So we'll see how it goes. Michael
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Douglas from Wall Street, like, it was like actually the devil, and like, I think there's like this, this like capitalism will, somebody will do it if I don't, and so, like, you're right.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Yeah. Speed. So if I choose to try to slow down Yeah. Immediate loss for me. Yeah. As an individual. Yeah. That's how it's perceived. Yes. Let's not go deep down there. Where do you go? Where do, do sit with l [01:03:00] SD and md MA?
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Where do I sit? Where do you mean? Like,
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: should we, should we slow down with LSD and MD MAI
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: don't think so.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: I don't think so. I don't, I don't think so. I mean, you know. It's different with the molecules. It's different with the molecules, I believe. Um, I think that we actually should be looking more towards, I think that we should be looking more at LSD in terms of the benefits that we could be reaping from that molecule, uh, in a similar way that we have been looking at MDMA.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: We've been looking at MDMA for a very long time, and I think that we should give LSD the proper, uh, like the proper, uh, scientific analysis. And I don't think that we are because of its, you know, like the way that it's been, uh, projected through history. So, so yeah. Um, that's how I, that's how I feel about that.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: And I think that, uh, there's a safe way to do these substances and yeah. What about you, Joe?
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: I'm gonna vote for two cb, I'm gonna vote for, um, five M-E-O-D-M-T 'cause there's no indigenous use, [01:04:00] um, with the toad. There was YoPo and some other things, but like there wasn't, wasn't like we're doing it today. Um, and then, okay, there's so many other Shogun molecules we could look at and, I don't know, three mmc, four MC.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: We got some, you know, Dr. Z molecules. That guy's extraordinary. Dr.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Z.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Mm-hmm.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Yeah.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Uh, yeah, he was gonna headline our conference in LA when we were still gonna do that.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Oh, oh yeah. Oh yeah. Way back. I, yeah. Oh wow. I remember, I remember when you guys were doing that.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: It was gonna be fun. Yeah. Anyway, um, anything you want to give a shout out to as we kind of wrap up here?
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: I would just like to shout out you, Joe. Thank you for having me on. Thank you for still standing and existing and leading. Psychedelics today into the future. I think that's really commendable and noble of you given how difficult it is to be running a media company, particularly in [01:05:00] psychedelics, but in general in media at large.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: And, uh, I would like to also say, if you don't follow me on Instagram, you can find me at Mary Prankster. That's Mary, MARY, YY prankster. Uh, you can find me across social media there and also sign up for Double Blinds Newsletter. We send out, we send out, uh, stories. Uh, we have great journalists writing stories for us.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Mary Carreon: Uh, we send out Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and yeah, that's pretty much it.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --><!-- wp:paragraph -->Joe Moore: Mary, carry on. Thank you so much for joining us and I hope we get to do more of this.
<!-- /wp:paragraph --> <!-- wp:paragraph {"placeholder":"Type / to add a hidden block"} -->Mary Carreon: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Joe.