Jordan B. Peterson talks with Ben Shapiro about the twisting of religious conceptions, the danger of a society without shared ideals, the necessity of deprivation, and the importance of a transcendent narrative. They also discuss the relationship between Marxism and Christianity, the impact of taboos on sexual boredom, the significance of oral learning and tradition, and the intersection of principles and politics.
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Quick takeaways
The importance of a transcendent narrative in shaping long-term societal benefits.
The connection between narratives and values, with stories providing a coherent representation of values.
The validation of symbols and archetypes through empirical analysis challenges the notion of arbitrariness.
The distinction between Marxism and postmodernism lies in the prioritization of victim-victimizer dynamics, with Marxism focusing on economic oppression and postmodernism expanding to multiple dimensions.
Deep dives
The importance of the story as a guiding framework
The podcast episode discusses the significance of the story as a central element in shaping our understanding of the world. It emphasizes that empiricism and rationality alone are insufficient processes for orientation. Instead, the narrative structure of a story helps prioritize information, guiding us through the abundance of data. The episode explores the idea that stories are representations of a hierarchy of attentional priority, revolutionarily placing the story at the center stage. It argues against the notion that power should be the fundamental lens to view the world, highlighting the radical left's insistence on a victim-victimizer narrative. It proposes an alternative perspective, suggesting that a transcendent narrative, encompassing the patterns that work best in repeated interactions across time, holds a universal and enduring value.
The relationship between the narrative and values
The conversation delves into the connection between narratives and values. It acknowledges that the interpretation of data is influenced by individual values, shaping how information is prioritized. The discussion highlights that ethical questions, such as abortion or moral dilemmas, rely on value frameworks rather than purely empirical or rational considerations. It argues that narratives, through the act of storytelling, provide a coherent and mutually understood representation of values. Stories are seen as an act of faith, assuming a set of values embedded within the narrative. The perception of a story as good or bad is rooted in our grasp of the underlying coherence and values inherent to the story.
The role of large language models in understanding symbols
The conversation explores the role of large language models in mapping out the statistical relationships between words and concepts. It discusses the empirical validation of the Freudian or Jungian notion of symbols, illustrating that clusters of concepts exist based on semantic distance. This parallel reinforces the understanding that symbols and archetypes are not arbitrary associations, but rather representations of statistical relationships within the linguistic corpus. The discussion extends to the interpretation of dreams and the meaning-richness of individual images, highlighting that even dreams exist within a web of associated meanings. The empirical mapping of symbols and archetypes offers insights into the analysis of texts and dreams, challenging the notion of arbitrariness.
The postmodern narrative of victim-victimizer and its inversion of Marxism
The podcast examines the postmodern narrative's emphasis on victim-victimizer dynamics and its distinction from classical Marxism. It identifies Marxism and postmodernism as sharing the victim-victimizer narrative, although they differ in their prioritization of dimensions of victimhood. Marxism primarily focused on economic oppression, while postmodernism expanded the narrative to multiple dimensions, resulting in an intersectional approach. However, the podcast notes a significant shift in the postmodernist movement that devalued economic dimensions. The conversation highlights the dangers of this inversion, where economic victimization is understated or ignored, potentially undermining a comprehensive understanding of inequality. This critical analysis aims to provide conservatives with insights into the relationship between Marxism and postmodernism, shedding light on their differences and potential consequences.
Challenging Past and Devaluing Tradition
The speaker discusses the cowardly act of attacking the dead and emphasizes the difficulty in demoralizing and devaluing the past. He highlights the willingness of critics to condemn and devalue the works of artists and authors, suggesting it reveals their lack of moral virtue.
The Marginalization of the Successful
The speaker explores the victim-victimizer narrative in society and argues that the more successful a person is, the more they become a target for criticism. He suggests that this trend stems from the belief that success indicates oppression or unfairness, rather than an absence of adherence to societal rules.
The Importance of Responsibility and Rebuilding Society
The speaker emphasizes the significance of taking on personal responsibility and actively participating in the rebuilding of societal structures. He highlights the need to focus on rebuilding the social fabric from the ground up, through actions like building strong families, fostering community, and embracing genuine principles and virtues.
Dr. Jordan B. Peterson speaks with best-selling author, commentator, rapper, and co-founder of The Daily Wire, Ben Shapiro. They discuss the postmodern twisting of religious conceptions, the proclivity for hedonism to propagate at the edges of shared ideals, the danger of a society which has no shared ideals, the necessity of deprivation, and the case for a transcendent narrative in regards to long-term societal benefits.
Ben Shapiro is the co-founder and Editor Emeritus of The Daily Wire and host of “The Ben Shapiro Show,” the largest conservative podcast in the nation. In addition, he also hosts “Debunked,” “The Search,” and “The Sunday Special.”
- Links -
2024 tour details can be found here https://jordanbpeterson.com/events
Peterson Academy https://petersonacademy.com/
For Ben Shapiro:
On X https://twitter.com/benshapiro?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
On Youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnQC_G5Xsjhp9fEJKuIcrSw
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